I received the following comment under #43. My response became quite involved so I wanted to create a new post covering some of “Mr Nater’s” challenges and opinions. His comment is in italics. My response follows.
A lot of beef seems to be over Marks complimentarianism and your (apparent) egalitarianism…
Isn’t there room for humility over such a difficult issue? Do we really need to fight dirty over the complimentarian vs. egalitarian debate?…Reality is that each side is deeply emotionally intrenched on the issue. And so are you.
I say this because this article is very much antithesis. You do a thoughogh job at Marks statements but you do not substantiate your own perspective. Your perspective is only painfully obvious to people to those who already believe what you do. In this case you are not changing anyones mind, you are just flaming the fires of hate between disciples of Jesus .
Sure i understand criticism is ok, but when it is everything then its slavery. Why don’t you build a case for egalitarianism. Why not treat the discussion fairly and intelligently. Why don’t you build a case for your view instead of polarizing, bullying and fear mongering… ironically becoming what you accuse Mark of being right?
Sure you can get a lot of web traffic by tearing down a popular church… but its no better than those awful youtube conspiracy video’s.
God has used both egalitarian and complimentarian churches to advance his kingdom. By all means we have a right to this important internal debate. But if it consumes us, and consumes this website, what do you have? Disciples fighting disciples.
Mr. Nater,
If I understand you correctly, you seem to be suggesting that I, and others like me, need to have “Humility over a difficult issue.” By “humility,” in this context, I am wondering if you might mean something like being quiet and gentle, non-assertive, non-challenging, non-confronting…This, along with other things you have written, informs me that you are perhaps a bit confused as to the “issue” here. We are talking about what looks like very serious abuse at Mars Hill Church, abuse of God’s people (see Post #14 Cult-Like Spiritual Abuse Issues & By Laws In a Nutshell, and #30 Driscoll’s Questionable Words & Behaviors, and #34 Is Mark Driscoll Verbally and Emotionally Abusive?)
…and abuse of God’s precious daughters especially… Have you not read, Mr. Nater, the crude, derogatory and disdainful things Driscoll has said about women which I’ve posted here on this blog? See post #8 Christian Taliban & Christian Women Donning Berkas: Spiritual Warfare Series, wherein Driscoll states that “women are the weaker vessel” and are therefore “the more easily deceived” that women are “busybodies and gossipers,” that ministry goal-oriented women are “manipulators” “controlling” and “drama queens” and that they are influenced by Satan if they want to marry a pastor and that women’s ministries are “cesspools” of gossip. Also, see Post #37 Mark Driscoll: Is He Qualified to Lead? Wherein he is quoted, “Most people thought [Mary, mother of Jesus] concocted the crazy story [of her pregnancy] to cover the fact she was knocking boots with some guy in the back seat of a car at the prom,” and “…a naked lady is good to look at, so get a job, get a wife, ask her to get naked, and look at her instead,” and Driscoll described a young man in his church as “a chronic masturbator, a porn addict, banging weak-willed girls like a screen door in a stiff breeze.”
Am I to have “humility” about this while thousands of young twenties are being deceived, demeaned, and held in bondage? Driscoll does not keep his apparent abuse directed at the women in his congregation only, he lashes out at the men “under his care” as well (see # 33. Driscoll Rants at Abusers… Abusively?) In my opinion Driscoll is behaving like an immature dictator. The more I learn of what he is up to, the more disgusted I become. There is no other word for it. Disgusted. Well, and deeply grieved. Driscoll has taken on a role never assigned to anyone in the New Testament, and he is abusing God’s children in that man-made role.
“Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Matt 20:25-28). Even Paul said he only wanted Christ’s disciples to follow him AS he followed and modeled Christ. Where Christian leaders fail to model Christ, we are under absolutely no obligation to follow their lead.
But it appears to me that Driscoll on the other hand, and contrary to this passage, has become a ruler of his own little kingdom, a despot with dangerous levels of power… and no one in a power position is confronting him on his abuse… go figure. They’re in those same high-powered man-designed, pride-catering positions themselves. If they rock Mark’s world, they have to rock their own little worlds. It’s the good ol’ boys club on a grand scale, and pathetically, supposedly in the Christian world.
This blog is not about gender per se, but about spiritual/church abuse. It might be helpful for you to read testimonies of those who allege abuse by Driscoll through his teaching and by his MH system. See posts #17, #20, #24, #25. Read Molly Warthen’s New York Times article, posted here in #21. To the extent that Driscoll’s prescribed treatment and beliefs about women are abusive and within the context of his being their “spiritual authority,” that too comprises spiritual/church abuse. Since there is so much of what appears to be abuse of women at MH as seen in their oppressing, demeaning, domineering over, and placing legalistic constraints upon women, gender inequality will continue to be a major issue I have with MH and will continue to be a major aspect of that system’s abusive tendencies and/or characteristics.
You write that I have not substantiated my opinions in post #43. You might want to look at #42 and other posts for the vast amount of substantiation I have provided. Based on Scriptural qualifications (1 Tim 3, Tit 1, see #42 Is Driscoll Really Qualified to Pastor?) Driscoll does NOT qualify to be a pastor nor even any kind of church leader when one carefully weighs his character, his actions, and his words. Also see #15 The Characteristics of a Controlling Personality—in my opinion heaps more of these descriptors fit Driscoll than the character qualities of a leader listed in Scripture! It appears, Mr. Nater, that you have misunderstood “the issue” on freedom4captives to be solely about Driscoll’s oppression of women. This is a weighty and grave part of the issue, but not all of it. Apparently you have missed much of what has been written here. I repeat, this is about spiritual abuse. This is about church abuse. This is about gross power abuse in the role of “Elder” in Scripture (which we now call pastor). Driscoll has apparently repeatedly lied to his congregation, he robs them of the freedom Christ died to give them, and he seeks to rule over them autocratically. See #13 Shocking Sections of MHC By-Laws, with Neilson’s Notes and #41 Should A Pastor Rule Over You?
Matt 23 comes to mind:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2″The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. …they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them…8 But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ [my Great One, Teacher] for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to…16″Woe to you, blind guides! … 23″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness… 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel… 29″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! … 33″You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
As to the effects my blog might have on others, I do not think that you, Mr. Nater, are in a position to read every reader’s mind and to prognosticate what conclusions they will or will not come to having read parts of this blog.
If any “fires of hate” are being flamed about on this end, it is the fire of hate we as Christians are called to: namely, we are called to hate oppression and injustice, to hate hypocrisy, to hate false authority and those who in the name of God seek to “lord it over” GOD’s flock… We are told to “HATE evil, love good” (Amos 5:15) and to “Hate what is evil; cling to what is good,” (Ro 12:9) and that “To fear the LORD is to hate evil,” (Pr 8:13)… Also, See #9. Christians Criticizing Christians Can It Be Biblical?
By stating facts and quoting Driscoll and comparing that to Scripture, how is this “polarizing, bullying and fear mongering” on my part? This seems to me that you have resorted to a pseudo polite form of name calling, rather than dealing with the issues at hand. You are not dealing with any of the issues I call Driscoll on in post #42 or #43, or anywhere else in this blog actually. You are participating in the logical fallacy ad hominem (“argument against the person”– an argument which links the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of a person advocating the premise.” Wikepedia.).
You charge me with “ironically becoming what you accuse Mark of being.” I find this rather amusing (and disturbing at the same time) in that I am not in a position of abusing thousands of people by laying down legalistic rules and “laws” which Scripture never even commands–in fact, laying down “laws” which Scripture commands against. I am not blaspheming my Lord by inferring that I love him but not in a way that I would want to perform oral sex on him when I get to heaven! Yes! Driscoll said this, see # 35 Driscoll: “Your husbands appreciate oral sex…So serve them well…” I am not claiming the first seat for myself as the Pharisees loved to do, etc.
If you think “web traffic” is what I’m after, you have 1) not read much of anything in this blog, and 2) know nothing of what it means to be abused by those in power, especially those claiming “God’s authority” as their right to having power over you. These types of abusers are usually men, and they are those who have not the heart of God and therefore abuse any authority he may have given. I think it comes down to your throwing accusations without anything to substantiate them.
The primary issue here is not gender equality, however I freely admit that gender equality has become a passion of mine, more so now than ever since running into Driscoll’s cult-like system (yes, in my opinion cult-LIKE). Gal 3:28 states, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Certain men–who seem to me to be quite insecure in themselves–are the only people so desperately concerned with coercing women to “obey” the few Scriptures which seem to imply total subjection to husbands (which contradicts 1 Cor 7 and Eph 5:21) and seem to imply women can never teach men or speak in church (which contradicts the Holy Spirit’s giving all gifts to all people, male and female, in the body of Christ, such as speaking words of knowledge and wisdom, speaking in tongues, and prophesying IN CHURCH among men! There are also the gifts of preaching and teaching, given by the Holy Spirit, to all who call on the name of the Lord, male or female, it does not matter to God… Acts 2, 1 Cor 12; 1 Cor 14).
I was reading several of the articles on cultwatch.com , such as, Church Authoritarianism; Church Leadership; and How Do Cults Work. This material contained some very helpful analysis of the original Greek word meanings and usage in the NT. Of interest is that the Greek words used for “submission” between husbands and wives and between elders and Christians are words indicating the choice of the one who might do the submitting. It is never about the other forcing the one into submission and condemning her to hell if she does not submit. This would be tantamount to women making a big hoopla about men not obeying a certain aspect of Scripture.
When Peter became overly concerned with John’s walk with Jesus and whether or not he would remain alive until the Lord’s return, Jesus told Peter to never mind about John, “you follow me.” Why is it that certain anxious men must so vehemently demand that women submit to them? Why don’t they leave that “command,” if it is such, up to the women to fulfill or not, just as we are all called to choose whether or not to obey the Lord on many various issues. This is harmful enough when male laity behave in such a manner, but it is exceptionally abusive when men use their church positions (and usually false authority) to coerce women into obedience to their desire to rule and reign (all in the guise of obeying Scripture, of course).
I find it awfully suspicious that some “Christian” men are so extremely invested in ensuring that women “obey” a few cherry picked Scriptures! This is very cult like. This is what cults do. That is why MH’s stance on women and the testimonies of those harmed by this caught my attention, along with other aspects which match up with VanVonderen’s and Dr. Enroths descriptions of church abuse. Cults use various Scriptures out of context also in order to control the cult members. Driscoll, and others like him, use Scripture passages which are difficult to translate, to understand and to apply correctly partly due to one glaring reason: they seem to contradict the gender equality Jesus teaches, Paul teaches and Gen 1-3 teaches and which many other Bible passages exemplify. Conversely, you do not find women in an uproar about husbands not loving their wives properly and not giving their lives up for them, now do you? You don’t find women teaching on this and making bogus principals out of this (like the men’s “headship principle” and “prophet, priest & king of the home principle”) and hounding the men with this every chance they get, now do you?
If you would like or need more scholarly information about Christian Biblical Equality see my posts #29 and #28 and/or go directly to Christians for Biblical Equality (CBE) at http://www.cbeinternational.org/ .
As much of a passion as gender equality in the Body of Christ has now become to me, still that is not primarily what this site is about, although at times it will take the pre-eminence because of the spiritually violent aspects of Driscoll’s false theology and spiritual abuse which violates women.
Freedom4Captives is about analyzing and highlighting what appears to be CHURCH ABUSE at Mars Hill. The more I read of mind control, aberrational “Christian” churches and of cults, the more I see similarities in Driscoll’s style of “leadership” (control) and the Mars Hill system. I urge you, Mr. Nater, to go do some research on the issues at hand, to spend some time studying what Driscoll is actually preaching, writing and how he is behaving, and then feel free to come back and address the complexity of the issues here if you’d like.
I always find it interesting when some men try to convince women that this is a “secondary issue”. I feel that in Mr. Nater’s first part of his post, he is calling for the “egalitarian” positioned person to simply “agree to disagree” and just consider this the aforementioned “secondary issue”. Men I actually respect, like Michael Spencer, seem to hold this viewpoint with regard to people like MD and Piper and others.
I agree that this issue does not rise to the level, at least in my mind, as one of the central tenets of the faith, but I also contend that it is much easier to “agree to disagree” about being a second-class citizen when you are not part of the population that is being asked to do so.
Just an observation.
Thank you for your comment, Savannah. Re your first paragraph, that was why I was a bit aghast that he was calling for some kind of “humility” as we seek to unearth the realities of gender discrimination in the church (which is, I believe, a form of abuse as it calls into question the dignity of women) as well as what most people who understand anything about cults and cult like behaviors would consider abuse. Jesus is the epitome of humility and look at the power in His humility as he takes on the money changers and the Pharisees!
And yes, it’s always easier for those in power to brush off the issues which concern and oftentimes define those who do not share their power position.
Freedom
Although i can see where you’re coming from, for pretty much all of your points, you shouldn’t try and elevate something of non-central tenet, to the level of central tenet.
it does not excuse what md has said and acts, and whether those things are in and of themselves wrong, it’s when you bring those up to the level of ‘is he qualified’, ‘is he acting christian enough’ etcetc.
although i may not lean to some of the extremes in terms of language and opinions that md does, and would likely not say some of the things he says, i do believe his intent and beliefs are, for the most part, completely biblical.
.. and from the couple posts i’ve read of yours, i wouldn’t encourage you to call someone as well read as md not biblically knowledgeable or blowing out of proportion is exegesis of texts. again, his language may be to the extreme when trying to get across his point, but his point in and of itself is way more often than not, christ-centered.
i am attempting to pick a fight or start a debate here, i am simply stating.
thank you,
sorry, forgot to add that also, it seems as though you are just getting to know md and his stuff. i suggest you read some of his books that detail more the coming in of marshill, and his own autobiography.
Off-topic here. (random I may get to you later, or not. Not sure. real busy around my house.)
I’ve been quiet. But just recently, I found out that the spiritually abusive pastor that I relate to MD that I used to have no longer has his church, he and his wife are separated and look to be heading for divorce.
I told my husband and all he could say was, “Are you surprised?”
Yes and no.
These abusive systems seem to be able to go on indefinitly. My former pastor’s church seemed to. His church went on for 20 years after we left.
But there does come a time when those who sow to the wind do reap the whirlwind.
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that he shall reap.
I’m sad for my former pastor, his wife, and for all who think they can bully their way in to anything pertaining to God. They are trampling on the sacred. They may get their doctrine right on several levels, but if they do not have love it is nothing. It is chasing after the wind and vanity.
Okay, I’m back.
Sorry for my garbled post above. I was as home getting ready to take my children to school before going to work with them pressuring me to get off the computer.
random: “i wouldn’t encourage you to call someone as well read as md not biblically knowledgeable or blowing out of proportion is exegesis of texts.”
From your words I see that you consider md ‘well read’. This is fine. But take care, There have been men better read than md who have started cults. So being well read in and of itself means little.
You can have the Bible memorized from Genesis to Revelation but completely miss the spirit of what is being said.
The pharisees couldn’t be pharisees unless they had Genesis through Deuteronomy memorized. And they are the ones who most fiercely opposed Jesus. They were the ones who ultimately handed Him over to be crucified.
It is the spirit behind md’s exegesis that I take exception with. From what I’ve found, he is very concerned, like the pharisees were, about maintaining his power base. He is very concerned with who is the boss of who.
This flies in the face of the very words of Jesus Himself.
Jesus said that whoever would be great in God’s kingdom must be servant of all.
He said, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
When you interpret the rest of the Bible through a macho man lens rather than from the Spirit of Jesus Christ, you get md.
He may get some things right, letter of the law right, in several areas, just like the pharisees did. But he misses the heart of Jesus in many areas. The letter of the law kills. The Spirit brings life. (that’s scripture, btw)
Just hearing about the fall out, the wounded people leaving MH makes me know that md is not getting it right, just like my former pastor didn’t get it right. You will know them by their fruit, not by how well they talk Bible. Not by how well they are able to make their scriptural points.
You will know Christians by their love, not by how they wow you with their Bible knowledge. Knowledge puffs up.
If you miss the Spirit of the Word, it doesn’t matter how much of the Word you know. Your foundation is wacked.
Your foundation needs to be based on the two greatest commandments given by Jesus. The beattitudes are also excellent. Any place Jesus said, ‘verily, verily I say unto you’ you better perk up because He has something really important to say. We better listen because He is the Chief Cornerstone that the builders rejected.
BTW other good portions of scripture that can be used to help build a foundation on rock (rather than sand) are the ten commandments, words written by the very finger of God. Also anywhere in scriptures God reveals Himself by a name, like “I AM WHO I AM”, Jehoveh Jireh, Jehoveh Rapha, Elohym are good because they flat out reveal God’s nature. Because that is what the Bible is all about. It is about God revealing Himself to us. He is light in our dark world.
Preachers elevating certain scriptures that they think gives them authority over others IS bad exegesis and self serving, not rightly dividing the truth, and not the Spirit of the Gospel.
I Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
vs2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
vs4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
vs 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil.
Though I am trying to be well-read in the Bible myself because within it are the words of life, I know that people can miss the heart of the gospel. Many have for hundreds of years. People have gone off the deep end and burnt witches, declared crusades, owned slaves, all claiming that the Bible said they should do it. So I take great care in my study. I know I don’t have a corner on God’s wisdom. I can fail to understand. My prayer is that I will learn the heart of God, one step at a time in this journey of life.
Some preachers make the mistake of thinking what is in their own heart is in the heart of God. But His ways are so much higher than our ways.
Psalm 51:21 These things hast thou done and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.
Being well-read in the Bible is good, if it is built on the right foundation.
Well-read does much less good for the preacher with a presonal agenda or a huge bias/blind spot.
Those of us who have been around a while can see some of md’s blind spots. We see them because we either had them ourselves and were delivered, or we’ve dealt with others who had those blind spots.
So while I agree with you, random, being well read should be a good thing, should be a thing that gets you on the road to being closer to Jesus, I disagree that being well read automatically keeps you or protects you from bad exegesis.
Sorry this got so long Freedom. Sometimes I don’t know how to keep it short.
You wrote,
“In my opinion Driscoll is behaving like an immature dictator. The more I learn of what he is up to, the more disgusted I become. There is no other word for it. Disgusted. Well, and deeply grieved. Driscoll has taken on a role never assigned to anyone in the New Testament, and he is abusing God’s children in that man-made role.”
Didn’t John Calvin have Michael Servetus burned at the stake and others thrown in prison all for disagreeing with him? Isn’t MD a Calvinist? So why are you surprised that MD exhibits behaviors that you find disgusting?
Dang, Larry.
If this is where calvinism leads, then may God deliver this country from all the calvinists.
Is it true?
Is that really the spirit of calvinism? Because if it is, then it is in direct opposition to the Spirit of Christ and the Gospel. It is a false gospel, contrary to the Spirit of God.
And just for the record, for people who don’t know me or my communication style, no, I don’t automatically think that all calvinists are this, that, or the other thing.
I’m sure there are many very nice calvinists. But I’m not sure what they believe or how it measures up to md at all. So if some nice understanding calvinist wants to set me straight, I’m willing to listen as long as it remains polite.
Random,
Thank you for your comments.
I’ve begun reading a highly recommended book called The Leadership Heresies, by Bruce Fleming (with his wife, Dr. Fleming who did most of the research of the Hebraic meanings of Gen 1-3). In the beginning of his book, he discusses “heresy” which is any lie about spiritual truth. For a Christian a heresy is any lie which contradicts, omits, adds to, or exaggerates biblical truth. ALL heresy is poison and is deadly whether it be an issue of salvation (i.e., if one believes the heresy one cannot be a Christian, for example: a heresy such as “one does NOT need to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved”), or an issue about biblical doctrine and teaching wherein the believing of such heresy would not affect one’s salvation (such as a Christian’s holding to what I believe is the heresy of subjecting women to men, removing the freedom that Christ came to give ALL believers and oppressing women so that they cannot obey the calling and giftings of the Holy Spirit in their lives). Those that are not salvation issues would nevertheless, as all heresies do, cause much pain, sorrow, sickness and bondage in the Body of Christ.
I don’t know for sure what MD’s “intents” are (according to Scripture it is only the spirit of a person which searches out the heart of the person, AND God’s Spirit, “search me O God, and know my heart…” and “God looks at the heart”), but despite that, Scripture also gives us some helpful means of weighing a person’s character: Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruit…” and “out of the heart the mouth speaks.” We are also given a thorough description of what it looks like when one is walking in the Spirit (the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace…). All of these give me some clues as to what MAY be MD’s intents and what might be going on in his heart… and from MD’s external behavior and words, these don’t always look so pretty. Regardless of his intents, the QUALIFICATIONS of biblical leadership are spelled out in ACTIONS in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1. My point in #42, Is Driscoll Qualified to Pastor, is that he appears to NOT meet these biblical qualifications.
And as to MD’s being “well read,” Mara makes some very good points. That doesn’t really mean a whole heck of a lot when someone’s behavior appears to be unbiblical. Also, in a way you kind of insult me by insinuating that unless I’ve read the 4000+ books MD frequently makes claims to have read, I do not have enough intelligence or right to question him. You have no idea the hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of books I have read over my 4o+ years on this planet and 3 decades of being a Christian.
As to your statement that it appears I am “just getting to know MD” and your suggestion I read more of his stuff perhaps before commenting or having opinions about MD… you might want to look around this blog a little more. The reality of the world of Driscoll and Mars Hill is new to me, and at the same time, I have done a lot of research listening or reading transcripts of his various (and often shocking) sermons, some interviews (also shockingly disturbing), read Vintage Church and some snippets of Vintage Jesus, read many accounts from former Mars Hillians, read the By-Laws and Nielson’s notes on them, visited Driscoll’s Ballard campus church and one of their home groups (admittedly, once each, but it did give me a bit of a feel for them), and have studied spiritual/church abuse and abusive systems and abuse in general for quite some time. I think all of that qualifies me to at least raise some questions and to state honestly what I am seeing in MD and comparing that to Scripture. Of course we all need to continue to learn more about whatever it is that we are studying/researching, which is why I’m planning on checking out more of his recent sermons, as I did awhile ago.
Freedom
Mara,
I appreciate your comments, and as I stated to Random in my comment above, you make excellent points about Random’s “Driscoll being well read” bit. And yes, it is “the spirit behind MD’s exegesis” that I also take issue with, that, and some of what I consider to be faulty “exegesis,” in fact would even call it “endogesis,” (reading into the text). The “fall out” of broken lives… do testify. I like what you said about “foundations being whacked,” fruit inspection, and the limitations of mental knowledge of Scripture and memorized Bible verses in and of themselves, for these are not enough to test and prove a person’s character and relationship with God. And what you write here is a good warning to all of us: “Some preachers make the mistake of thinking what is in their own heart is in the heart of God. But His ways are so much higher than our ways.”
Lately God has been challenging me with Micah 6:8
“He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.”
Sometimes I get wrapped up in ensuring there is justice for those who are oppressed, that I forget to walk in mercy even toward those who are enslaving and oppressing and abusing. The humility piece is another aspect I am seeking the Lord about. At times I have been so angry at Driscoll that I am sure I “monsterize” him, that is, make him “all bad.” I think he does do MANY things that are bad and even very bad, but he probably isn’t “all bad.” I think a lot of what drives him is probably his own brokenness. I need to have pity on him, as I recognize my own unhealed broken places and how I have hurt others from that place as well.
And no worries, I didn’t think you rambled nor that your comment was excessively long. I myself could use some lessons in condensing!
Well, Freedom,
You know my initial shock, disgust, and utter disbelief when I was first exposed to the extremes of Driscoll’s teachings here. It is all logged in, especially under your OS post.
I’m still disgusted.
I’ve also heard from many the good things that he’s done or said or the good impact that he’s made on people’s lives, that he is relevant to this culture in ways other preachers aren’t.
And I hear what they are saying. I understand what they are saying.
Also, this recent knowledge I have concerning my former (Abusive, Driscoll-like) pastor has softened me greatly towards this pastor, and Driscoll. Not toward their sin and the damage they have done to the walking wounded, but toward the men, the human beings that Jesus died on the cross for.
I can honestly say that if I could, I’d sit by my former pastor’s wife, and just sit, as a friend, and find out what is troubling her, her husband, and their marriage.
Not with an, “Aha! Gotcha!” or an “Aha! Told you so!”. But with a, “Jesus sees and knows your pain and wants to help you. And I want to do whatever I can” attitude.
She might receive that from me. Or not.
I have the same attitude toward my former pastor but have the overwhelming feeling that he would reject my concern, be suspcious of it, and drive me away with his, he-man, got-it-all-together attitude. Even so, if the opportunity were to arise, I’d still take the chance and sit next to him.
And I think I’m getting to the place of feeling that way with md. Usually the walking wounded were hurt by someone who was wounded before them.
Anyway, I’m getting long on this but still want to make my main point.
Even with the compassion and pity I feel toward these men and their wounds, I’m still angry with the damage they have done and are still doing.
They are like young bulls in the china shops of people’s wounded souls, snorting and kicking and shouting, “What manly men we are!”
For all md defenders, I want to direct their attention to the words of James.
James 3:8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
Vs 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father; and with it we curse men (which includes women), who have been made in the likeness of God;
Vs 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
Vs 11 DOES A FOUNTAIN SEND OUT FROM THE SAME OPENING BOTH FRESH (SWEET/LIVING) AND BITTER WATER?
Vs 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Neither can salt water produce fresh (sweet/living).
Md sends out both fresh and bitter waters as is evident from the bad fruit produced by his ministry.
This is not acceptable. From the bitterness in his own heart he wounds others. Unintentionally, perhaps.
But it still happens.
And him surrounding himself with “yes” men was the absolute worse thing he could have done for himself and his church.
We ALL need correction. We ALL need friends who will give us faithful wounds, the kinds of wounds that heal, and knock us down a notch on the pride-o-meter.
Proverbs 27:6a Faithful are the wounds of a friend.
But md sheilds himself from this kind of help.
Questioning him, now, has become a sin.
This documented fact screams out, “I am above reproof, I am above correction.” It also say, more sublty, “I’m a bitter, wounded, insecure man who needs some deep, inner healing.”
May all the walking wounded involved in MH, past and present, including the shepherd… may they all find healing from the true Source of sweet, fresh, living water.
And yes, we must continue to point out the bitter waters being spewed out at MH. Not because we hate anyone. But because just as Paul opposed Peter when Peter went off the deep end, it is out Christian duty to oppose those who do damage to the message of the Cross.
Another long one, Freedom. Sorry. But I think you said it was okay.
Mara,
I think I’m coming to the place of being where you are, in what you are describing about having some pity and compassion for these poor controlling souls (see my new page “Musings”–I actually quote you there).
Perhaps for many of us when we are geared up for a “fight” and our “enemy” looks as formidable as Driscoll sometimes appears, and our enemy is doing much damage to those who are weaker or less in status and power, and he seems completely unrepentant, we want to launch everything we have as we cry “Foul!” I think the anger can be a righteous anger… it’s how we manifest it, how we utilize that anger that makes the difference in whether or not it is pleasing to God and whether or not it will be effective in communicating. I know I am so imperfect with this, and I’ve been doing some more soul searching about this, about MD, and other things.
So I, too, am getting to a place of feeling sorry for Driscoll… and yet still remaining angry with how his deception is damaging the lives of thousands of other young Christians who are also young people. It’s a mix. The softer side of me wants to pity him, recognizes my own major flaws… the fighter side of me wants to uphold truth and righteousness and freedom for all, and is sometimes angry enough to spit nails!
My goal then is to keep presenting the truth and to keep humbling myself before the Lord for HIS strength to reign back my emotions… this is difficult in regards to issues for which I feel so much passion. In this case where the truth and grace in Christ and in His Word appear to be severely imbalanced, and where God’s Word is used in an incorrect manner, via poor translations, misinterpretations, misapplications and for the apparent purpose of controlling others and building one’s own kingdom…
Freedom!
It’s a hard balance to find and maintain.
But attention still must be drawn to it.
We are called to freedom. Anything that takes away that freedom sets itself up as a false gospel.
After a while of being subject to a bitter, false gospel, people begin to resent it. Some spit it out. And they are turned off to ANYTHING having to do with Jesus.
They don’t want His living waters because they think it is the bitter waters md hands out.
Good musings page. btw.
There is a vast difference between male leadership and male domination. Driscoll’s penchant for leadership by force reveals a disturbing insecurity concerning his own authority. And his obsession with sexual issues is also distressing, especially finding sexual interpretation where there is none.
The “gentle, patient, apt to teach, not a brawler” requirements for leadership are ignored in favor of vocal force, demeaning language, emotional violence, and even a sacrilegious repackaging of the earthly revelation of Jesus Himself. The caricature of Jesus that is presented by Driscoll should be enough for any moderate Bible student to reject outright.
Rick,
I appreciate your comment; it’s refreshing to read from a male who is not wowed by Driscoll’s, “i’m a stud he man and so is my jesus, wanna come join me in subjugating and objectifying women” persona.
As to your second paragraph, AMEN! and, well said. I’ve commented and/or posted in this blog that I could never fellowship with Driscoll around his jesus; that jesus is simply not the Jesus whom I have come to know and love in Scripture and via personal experience.
As to Driscoll’s qualifications to pastor, I think he fails the test across the board. In my post, Is Driscoll Really Qualified to Pastor?, I took each one of the qualifiers in 1 Tim 3:1-7 and measured those against Driscoll’s behaviors and words… he perhaps squeaked by on 3-4 of these.
The qualifiers I do not think he meets are as follows:
above reproach
temperate (pleasant, mild, moderate)
self-controlled
respectable
able to teach (although he’s entertaining, and is a gifted speaker, I don’t think he accurately teaches Scripture; there seems to be more of his reading into Scripture what he wants it to say than solid exegetical teaching)
not violent but gentle
not quarrelsome
must not be a recent convert
must have a good reputation with non-Christians
In that post I quoted Titus 1:7-9 (but here I am listing those where I think Driscoll fails to qualify):
blameless
not overbearing
not quick tempered
not violent
self-controlled
upright
holy
must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught
SO THAT
he can ENCOURAGE others by SOUND DOCTRINE and
refute those who oppose it
…he refutes much and often, but it is my opinion that his refutations get off because his doctrine gets derailed, and he seems to fit more with those who exacerbate rather than encourage God’s flock to fall more in love with our beautiful Savior and to live a life of worship and of loving obedience…
Freedom
I find it amusing that you are taken to task for a lack of humility when Driscoll is anything but humble.
The Driscollites always tell us we have either:
1. Not heard all his sermons
2. Not read all his books
3. Never met him
So, we cannot possibly understand that he is not really all that bad. They are enamoured with him. I pray they will be more enamoured with Christ, one day.
Good points, Lin!
Freedom
Do you have to agree with your pastor on everything? I don’t feel that I must be a clone of any person, including pastors, preachers, elders, etc…it is precisely because I am a strong, confident woman that Mark Driscoll’s over-the-top comments don’t bother me. I take Christ’s words as commands; other people’s words as suggestions. If I agree with, say, 90% or even 80, 85% of what a pastor/priest says in church, I feel comfortable joining that church. Personally, I think Mark Driscoll uses sex, humor and contraversy to bring people into church who usually wouldn’t be interested. And let’s face facts, many Christian men have problems/issues around sex and porn. So, that’s why these topics come up so often in Driscoll’s sermons.
Wow… reading posts like this makes me amazed at how much people can get carried away.
I’ve searched the internet over the past hour or so, and I’ve found an unbelievable amount of hate directed toward Mark Driscoll, all justified by their own interpretations of the implications of his theology.
I’m not an expert on pastoring or theology. And I don’t attend Mars Hill church. But I have been to Mars Hill Church, and despite what anyone might say, I’ve noticed no cultic practices. All I see is love; I really think that it’s an atmosphere of love. As far as lecturing, I know that he rants about sinful behavior, but frankly, Christians are called to admonish other Christians. As far as personal details of peoples lives, everyone knows he makes no attempt to govern these. His “flock” is a diverse body from all kinds of backgrounds, and some of his biggest fans would be considered “rough people” by many.
Last thing I’ll mention is that a tendency of cults is to create branches all over the country, and put them under the political control of a small elite. Driscoll just wants to see the Holy Spirit in action. He actually helped start the Acts 29 network, which seeks to plant independent churches all over the world (not, in any way, under his control).
Bettie and Jay,
Please see my new post #47 as a general response to recent and not so recently made new comments.
Freedom!
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