Hey there friendly– and not so friendly– readers and posters!
I am still around… still kicking… but I haven’t even looked at this blog for over a year! However, I do see the comments that come in via my email. I just posted many, many of these comments, positive and negative, some from many months ago, some from as recent as today (see pages: Misogyny?, Mars Hill, Discoveries; and posts: 15, 21, 33, 42, 44). If you were ranting and don’t see your comment, it’s probably because of just that: you were ranting without saying anything substantial. Some comments I did post were borderline… uh, not the personality disorder, but I posted them anyway. I’m hoping that those of you who understand cult like tendencies and unhealthy control within the church will respond to those who are less informed in such matters as I simply do not have the time.
And as to those of you who have shared heart wrenching stories of your experiences of church abuse, including at MH, my heart and prayers go out to you. If/when I can manage it, I will try to post in response to your stories. All I can say for now though is seek healing! Get counseling from a healthy, balanced biblically based counselor (not a Bible Thwacker, my phrase for Bible Thumper who thinks he/she is a counselor, but really only damages people further by throwing a Scripture on every problem the injured person presents). You might want to call New Life Ministries at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. They will direct you to a good Christian counselor in your area, one whom they have thoroughly screened.
Again, I really recommend doing an Amazon search for books on spiritual abuse, especially for those of you who are so closed-minded and want to put on a Polyanna mindset that as Christians we are called to always be accepting, validating and loving without ever calling anyone out for harmful, unbiblical behavior. I’ve written a post on this blog, using an author’s outline for his wonderful book about spiritual abuse, I think his last name is Martin, but it’s been so long, not sure. I’ll look it up and find it on here later, anyhow, he wisely differentiated between: gossip, slander and warning.
Gossip: telling the truth about someone else with dysfunctional, hurtful motives–oftentimes to trash the other and make oneself look better
Slander: telling a lie about someone else with the purpose of trashing them
Warning: telling the truth about someone else with the purpose of warning and protecting others from their damaging behavior
Even Paul the Apostle warned folks in his pastoral letters about “Alexander the metalworker” who “did [Paul] much harm.” He tells people to stay away from folks like him. But I suppose from some of the detractor’s comments here, Paul should have perhaps only focussed on and written about “Jesus’ love” rather than saying anything negative about Alexander, hence, allowing Alexander to spread his poison and to continue harming others… all in the name of “Christian Love.” (What if parents behaved this way in re to their children??!! Unfortunately, some do… it’s called negligence and abuse!)
In addition to Christian books about spiritual abuse (Johnson & VanVonderen’s, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church, is a classic!) some of you might want to consider reading Boundaries and Changes That Heal, by Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend. You might also look at Leslie Varnick’s The Emotionally Destructive Relationship. I’m recommending these books for both the wounded survivors out there and the Pharisees (who call me a Pharisee for warning others) and for the blind and devoted defenders of Driscoll’s. The latter probably won’t check into these wonderful resources though… too bad, so sad.
I’m slightly, only slightly, apologetic for my apparent attitude in that last bit… but I am tired… major surgery 2 months ago, and having recently found myself in the position of needing to leave a church I had begun to grow fond of, not because of spiritual abuse, but because of spiritual stupidity. People were encouraged over and over again to just “let go and let God,” to “leave it in the Lord’s hands,” to “Leave your past behind you, you’re a new creature…” to “keep hoping, praying for that miracle” to “Let God break depression off of you” and to “Let God deliver you from addiction,” meanwhile, from what I could hear, these people were not being encouraged to be responsible and to take the steps toward their own healing process, to work with God (“Work out your own salvation/sanctification/healing with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you to will and to do of His good pleasure…”). These people were not encouraged to seek counseling, and to join 12 step or Celebrate Recovery groups… After a time it was so clear to me that most of these people were not just getting “zapped” by God, despite “holding on to the promises,” but were remaining stuck in their woundedness and their sinful/dysfunctional patterns. I saw aspects of this bizarre behavior/belief system even from the beginning of my sojourn there, but it took awhile to see how pervasive this was and how entrenched that church culture is in “Bible Only” theology, Bible Only for everything.
I need to emphasize here that I love God’s Word, and I believe everything must submit to God’s word (including philosophies, ideologies, psychological theories, etc), nevertheless, Bible Only does not work for many things in life, including but not limited to: brain surgery, fixing your leaky roof, developing good nutrition and exercise plans, healing from adultery, attaching well with our spouse and children, healing from trauma, recovering from depression and/or anxiety disorders, etc… The Bible simply does not have everything we now know about physiology, stress, brain research and healthy psychology. The Bible does not even contain everything the apostles and disciples knew and experienced of Jesus (see gospel of John, last chapter).
Sigh… Ah well, I need to get going… see, this is why I stay away from this site, it’s time consuimg and then I get going on all this and the ideas flow as I type along.
Thanks for reading and posting. May Gal 5:1 be yours!!
“It was for FREEDOM that Christ set you FREE! Therefore stand fast! And do NOT be subject again to a yoke of bondage!!”
Freedom!! 
Hi Freedom.
Good to see you if only for a moment.
I got a kick out of the one dude saying that Driscoll teaches the Bible and wanted proof that he didn’t preach it accurately.
All I could think was, Dang, you should read what John McArthur thinks of Driscoll’s teaching on the Song of Solomon. Driscoll goes way off on that, finding sexual references under every rock and tree that can make sailors blush.
I don’t know how Driscoll teaches the rest of the Bible. But the way he perverts the Song of Solomon and gets it soooo wrong is enough to make me suspicious of to all his preaching.
FREEDOM!
Thanks for holding up what is the main purpose for Christ’s death for us. Freedom Gal. 5:1
I have some real good audio on my site dealing with Christian freedom (if you get the chance)
Thanks!
Freedom,
Just a quick note to say thank you so much for being here and all the work you’ve done. You are absolutely helping people. It’s really nice to have a wise safe place on the web to which I can direct folks with questions about Mars Hill in Seattle. You rock!
Benjamin
Thank you so much, Benjamin!
Also, to others of you who have recently left comments, I just posted several more of these. I will try to answer some of these, hopefully sooner than later, but have been away at a conference all week… busy catching up, etc!
Warmest heart felt regards to all of you!!
Freedom! (Gal 5:1)
I have stared a new facebook group designed to laugh at the bad experiences had by those who have attended Mars Hill in Seattle and found it to be a cult but who now suffer from the experience you and all from freedom4captives.wordpress.com welcome to join http://www.facebook.com/#!/home.php?sk=group_209531802405734
NOTE: I am not on facebook, so I have not checked out Jordan’s facebook page or group he is referring to. Therefore, I cannot say whether or not the “laughing at the bad experiences” at MH would be helpful or not in that particular context.
What I do know is that those who have been truly traumatized by MH and have not taken the time to go through any healing process of recovery may very likely not benefit from trying to laugh at their traumatic experience.
Freedom
I am not laughing at the experience at MH. I left Mars Hill due to spiritual abuse. And I could really understand how easy it is to condemn Mars Hil if you did not have a good experience. Seriously, it is like you just want to go on a rating site and give Mars Hill one star out of five and just keep repeating Cult, Cult, Cult. And then God convicted me. I cannot condemn Mars Hill with 1 star, but I cannot give them 5 stars either. For a church to have 5 stars, they would need to be completely dependant on God and love God with all of their heart and abide by every verse in the Bible (no contradications), and their leaders would need to be able to help their members to grow in their Christian faith. My experience with members and leaders of Mars Hill was that it was hit or miss with their faith. I would give Mars Hill 3 stars–that is fair–that is the rating that God would give them. The biblical verse 1 Corinthians 7:23 “God purchased you at a high price. Don’t be enslaved by the world”–Do not be a slave to man.
Thank you and thank you, again. Just found your blog and it is a breathe of fresh air. Have to agree with just about everything and you have uncovered the subtleties of abuse with great acuity. Hurrah for you and the truth! I came out of two abusive marriages…finally at age 50 it is all making sense to me, i.e., how I came to be in abusive relationships and how inappropriate it is to allow abuse in any way shape or form!! I am still healing and it’s things like your blog that urge me to not give up the healing process. It’s true…it is for freedom that Christ has set us free! I am putting your site in my favorites. PS-I too came across Paul Howey’s site…it’s excellent! I’ve conversed with him a couple times via email…good man; he is.
Also I noticed you don’t post here often…do you have another blog that you are posting to instead? I do hope you haven’t stopped blogging! Oh, and one more thing…I am starting a blog myself about abusive relationships specifically for women. It’s a slow start, but reading yours gives me a little more confidence.
God bless you!
Hi Mnt Girl,
Thank you for your encouraging post, and I am sorry for the pain you’ve experienced at the hands of church leaders.
I am still “around,” still…
Just very busy with my professional work and life. And, no, I don’t have another blog, but good for you for starting one! And you’re right, it does take A LOT of time to start up and to maintain… hence my long silences and absences. Most of my time these days is spent interacting, not in cyberspace so much, but in real time, face to face (the old fashioned way 
).
And in responding to your post, 1 Corinthians 7:23, I would just say I am posting and have always posted my perceptions based on my personal experience and that of others given by way of “self-report” and my own research and studies. You see a 3 star, okay. I see not a 1, but a negative number somewhere in the hundreds (to be a bit dramatic), but seriously, because of the amount of pain that has crawled or limped or been carried on a stretcher out of MH, I would never endorse that church to anyone, despite any “good” that may be coming out of it. It is awesome for young people to find the Lord, but what will happen as time goes on and they are sunk deeper and deeper into the kind of servitude and legalistic demands of MH? Will they be one more Pharisee, or one more casualty of MH? Will they equate Jesus to Mark Driscoll, or the Jesus portrayed there by Driscoll and the other leaders?
Jesus’ heart is quite different from what I see happening at MH. Jesus invites us to:
“Come to ME all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take MY yoke upon you, and learn from ME, for I am gentle and humble of heart and you will find rest for your souls. For MY yoke is easy and MY burden is light.” Matt 11:28-30.
Grace and Freedom, Truth and Love to all of you!
Freedom!
Funny that you mentioned the scripture from Matt 11. That is the name of my blog….The Lighter Burden. Just gettin’ started on it…and praying about it!
Thank you freedom4capitives for your comments. It is so hard when you go through spiritual abuse. When I made the decision to leave Mars Hill, I was trying to follow God’s word and be loving but simply tell them it was an unhealthy church. The truth is that my heart was completely broken by the leaders at Mars Hill. I was completely blindsided by the church discipline letter. I was betrayed by someone that I considered to be a good Christian friend. I want to just pretend like it never happened or that I was never part of Mars Hill. I did not know that Mars Hill was a cult or that spiritual abuse happened there. I know that I will eventually post a review on the church. I am taking my time and trying to heal first. I am just figuring out how I can word it as more of a warning to other people and do so in a loving way.
I got the booking “When God’s People Let You Down” and this book has really helped me. “There is way back into a relationship with God and full fellowship with members of His family that is healthy and safe. It’s going to take something on your part to rebuild the bridge of trust. You may have to fight your way back. While you aren’t responsible for the wounds, you can and must take responsiblity for your recovery from them. In the end, it will not matter so much what happened to us or how we were treated. What will tell the tale of our lives is how we responded to those things and how we grew stronger in the image of Christ because of them.”
I have my own experience with this very thing. I have two adult daughters who attend MH and shortly after attending they have shunned our entire family. I have been a Pastor for 25 years and our family has always been very tight knit. When my daughters first started attending I was told that I need to repent of my sin and become a real christian. My daughters were counseled that their sin was really my sin and I needed to release them from the sin they had always carried of mine. How absurd. It is amazing to see the small heresies that turn to large ones real quick at Mars Hill. My daughters now want nothing to do with me or their mom or their 5 siblings. Before Mars Hill we of course had issues as a family, but we loved and honored each other. Pretty scary
Pastor Bernheisel,
I am so sorry for your experience. My husband and I were shunned from our daughter’s wedding at Mars Hill because – even though we have been saved servants of Christ – we dared to question the church’s advice that she marry who THEY thought she should. The divisiveness and lack of respect to so many parents of Mars Hillians is abominable.
I could go on and on but one experience of ours was when our daughter first requested counseling from a pastor at Mars Hill in re: an extended family issue. I happened to be in town and she asked me if I would like to join her. As we were talking, the pastor stopped and asked my daughter what she thought of her relationship with me. She explained that we had “a great relationship, I love my mom” (her words). The pastor then said that we were too close and -I quote – “Mary, you need to divorce your parents”. What is that about? How come they encourage the kids at their redemption groups to write their parents a “you were a crappy parent letter”? Mars Hill so wants to become the new family and for the kids to essentially disown their birth families. The preaching may be about Jesus, but the methods are rotten.
If you know of a support group for parents, let me know.
Dear Pastor Bernheisel,
I am so, so sorry I never commented on your comment. Sometimes I only have time to post (after months at that) then make a mental note–scary thought!–to get back to it, and then don’t. I meant to because your story did touch my heart and I grieve with you. Have you sought out some good Christian counseling for support through this? I seriously believe that some pits are so painful and so deep that it behooves us to find trained help to assist us in walking through it. The family dynamics and the church-cult dynamics are so complex. A good place you might want to start is 1-800-NEW-LIFE.
I hope and pray your daughters “come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil” and are reunited to you and your family.
And to “Hurt Parent,”
Your story touched me as well. I am so sorry. MH is clearly abusing the “leave and cleave” principle. RE: support groups for parents with kids in cults or cult-like churches, I don’t know of any particularly, but hopefully with some google searches or contacting New Life (see number above) and searching on Amazon for some of the good books I’ve mentioned previously, you will find the help and support you need.
From one parent of adult children to another, Big Hug!
Freedom!
Hi!
I’ve loved your blog for a long time and wanted to tell you that I talked about Mars Hill Church abuse on my podcast the other day. It’s here in case you’re interested. It’s been healing to find people who have had similar experiences. http://dongtini.blogspot.com/2011/10/dongtini-episode-12.html
Freedom,
I just wanted to thank you for being here to shed some light and show us that we are not alone. We have been attending the new church plant in OC for the past few months after relocating from Central California where we sadly had to leave some beautiful, loving, spirit filled people behind because of cold hard economics and came to Mars Hill expecting that it’s national reach validated it’s core doctrine and ecclesiastical model…. The doctrine is ok… I guess…. But seems very much to be the beginning and end at Mars Hill… It is ALL about doctrine and theology…. The first service we went to they said “Your Doctrine Dictates Your Quality of Life” Really? I thought the Holy Spirit enabled us to love rightly, bear others burdens joyfully and be transformed by His power…. We began to sense the heavy, somber, almost solemn spirit operating in the church…. worship was just a 10 minute interlude that everybody seemed to bear through until they got to the GOOD STUFF! MARK DRISCOLL VIDEOS!
When we started having questions as they started pushing us towards membership we were shown by the spirit the nature of the “membership covenant”. It is essentially a tool of authoritarian control and we got our first taste of this when our CG leader rebuked us for asking our friends questions and demanded that we essentially sit down with him so we could be reconciled through his grace…. he didn’t use those words but that was the point…. we were sinning by airing doubts and concerns (not frustrations!) and he was willing to offer us grace if we “shut up and do what we are told!” Luckily I am a Berean and don’t care who’s telling me what or whos trying to spoon feed me their version….. I discern through the power of the Holy Spirit. At this point we realized we were shipwrecked…. with the one above one authoritarian leadership model and because the one above the one ordains the one below him….. the ladder of loyalty is set up so no one can question without being subject to discipline for being divisive….. If we kept our mouths shut and stayed away we were causing division by creating alarm with our brothers and sisters….. if we asked questions we were causing division and not submitting ourselves to leaderships authority over us!
Finally our CG leader must’ve gone to the Deacon who installed him and asked him for some teeth with which to punish us and said we were not allowed on The City and that if we ever wanted to be a part of Mars Hill we must submit ourselves to questioning from the leadership…. WHY!? So they can bully us into thinking we are wrong or bully us into submission and try to invalidate the leading of the Holy Spirit that revealed these things to us individually?
That place is the twilight zone! After the CG leader ran roughshod over us condemning us and judging our motives and using…. mind control tactics to set guilt, shame, confusion and self doubt in our minds we walked away bewildered and confused….. 3 months it took with us just asking some pretty tame questions about the way they did things and we were essentially excommunicated….. (we can always come back because after all he did say he loves us right before he spent the next 3 paragraphs condemning and judging us) but the only way we get through the door is by submitting ourselves to a bully pit of our CG leader, the far too young and spoiled deacon and the ex-police officer pastor….. They have bewildered us and broken our hearts….. we still can’t even figure out what the heck happened….. why he lashed out with such venom… All we can do is pray for him….. we can do much more for him on our knees than we can do trying to engage him in doctrinal, scriptural or theological swordplay, especially since we do not have the energy to continue hashing this out with them…
Since then we have felt a bit isolated, a little ashamed, and heart broken for being cut off from the ready made group of friends MH manufactured for us…… So your blog gives us great joy…. knowing there are those who discern in love the wayward path they are on….. We love everyone of the people who condemned and attacked our motives…. there was plenty of times when I wanted to tell them to go eff themselves but when it boils down, we love them…. and are sad that they are trapped in a church devoid of worship, ecclesiastically modeled after a super apostle’s authoritarian model and beholden unto one mans vision…… More than a dozen churches in 3 different states…. all streaming one man’s teaching? It feels almost like the spirit of the occult is operating in Mars Hill….. that is why worship is lifeless, and why the weeks DVD is so celebrated…. it should be the opposite…. we should be falling in awe and admiration…. crying out to God asking for more of him and the Holy Spirit in our hearts…. to penetrate our hearts and minds more deeply than ever before….. surrendered and worshiping in total abandonment….
But no! Some tap their feet…. some nod their head a little…. One person may even have the “freedom” to lift 1 hand…. and they all stand waiting for the songs to be over……. so we can pop in the DVD and begin to worship!
Thank you for your brave voice….. You insight and availability have had an immense impact on us…. and you are coming against the lies of the enemy and the falsehoods and creations of man….. May the Holy Spirit continue to guide you, instruct you, transform you and restore you. and may your light burn bright and chase away the darkness.
Hi Jacob,
I’m sorry it has taken me so long to post your comment and then to respond. My life is incredibly busy and I hardly peek in at my blog, but do pray it continues to reach the hearts in need of it. Thank you so much for sharing your story! It echoes the stories of many others and definitely the sense I myself had when traipsing through the MH landscape a couple years ago, as well as through the wreckage seen in many escapees’ lives. You are right-on when you talk about the bullying, mind-control, occult-feel, lack of worship, control-tactics in MH. I really appreciated what you had to say about the “membership covenant” (which I too read and it was one of my first MAJOR red flags!) and you wrote, “It is essentially a tool of authoritarian control.” Amen and Amen and Amen.
Thank you for the prayerful and kind encouragement. I do hope you wander back to this blog to see I did read and pay attention to what you had to say and my tardiness in posting was only due to my crazy, busy world.
I pray you find Jesus’ peace, rest and freedom in a community which truly evidences HIS Spirit… “Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” A couple of good books to help you heal might be the one on Mind Control, written by Stephen Martin, and highlighted in one of my posts, #45. Also, see Jeff VanVonderan’s, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse which you can get on Amazon. Sometimes finding a good Christian therapist is necessary for healing. You can call 1.800.NEW-LIFE for referrals to therapists in your area. And, back to community, one of the most important and vital means of healing a broken heart which has been subjected to spiritual abuse is finding that loving, non-toxic, Christian community–which isn’t necessarily easy, I realize! As Dr. Townsend and Dr. Cloud have written so often, “It was in relationship we were wounded, and it is in relationship that we are healed.”
God’s Peace and Freedom to you, Jacob!
Freedom!