[1/28/12 NOTE: Since writing this post on Jan 20, I have received an email from NLM's President, Larry Sonnenburg. Please see this within the comments below.]
Well, it’s come to my attention that New Life Ministries, a ministry I’ve endorsed and still endorse, has, via their New Life Live radio program (NLL), aired a show on Jan 11, 2012 with… you guessed it, Mark Driscoll as Steven Arterburn’s guest! Steve had invited him to highlight Driscoll’s new book on marriage! I have not yet read the book, but my immediate response was a heart sick, “Oh no!” and then a very confused, “What the heck??!!”
I just listened to the 10 or so minutes Driscoll was on air. What he said sounded right-on, but from what I recall, he does that. He can sound really good about a lot of things, I guess even about marriage some times, or at least he did on Jan 11.
But there is simply too much I do not know at this point to make any kind of assumption. But here are some things I do know and some things I hope for.
Arterburn and NLL (New Life Live) have been notified regarding some of the concerns many of us on this blog share.
I hope NLL and Steven Arterburn will do some research regarding MH and Driscoll.
I know from decades of reading and exposure to NLL and the wonderful co-hosts on the program that they are not at all about what Driscoll and MH have appeared to me to be about as covered in this blog. That is so NOT New Life Ministries!
As I’ve stated throughout this blog, my take on MH and Driscoll is solely based on reports from survivors of MH, my brief experience of the church, reading Driscoll’s book, Vintage Church, research on MH, and listening to many of Driscoll’s sermons in the past.
What I don’t know is if Driscoll has had a heart-change over the past couple of years since I last looked into MH… and as stated I have not read his new book on marriage which NLL is apparently promoting.
But another thing I do know beyond any doubt is that everything I have ever heard come out of NLL, from Arterburn, Dr. Townsend, Dr. Cloud, Milan Yerkovich, Dr. Sherri Denim, Dr. Jill Hubbard, and Dr. Stoop, and from their books–over the 25 years I’ve been reading them–have all been life-giving, woman-honoring, and the most healthy, balanced view of psychologically and spiritually healthy and sane living that I have ever come across… and I read voraciously! And I generally make a conscious effort to not say words like “everything” “ever” “all” and “the most,” in other words, those always/never type words, but it’s true here, really! I still trust NLL very much. I think Arterburn’s invitation to Driscoll is more indicative of a lack of awareness of Driscoll’s and MH’s history than any corroboration with Driscoll’s and MH’s apparent abusive tendencies…
I hope and trust that if Driscoll’s recent book promotes those same harmful attitudes toward women and general controlling/abusive tactics that we’ve seen or heard about, and if the co-hosts read the book, that they will talk to Steve about this. They would in all likelihood be as appalled as we have been. I would also be surprised Steve would endorse Driscoll’s book if in it Driscoll was spouting what we have seen highlighted in this blog (unless he gave the book only a cursory and brief read), since Arterburn is the author of Every Man’s Battle (about porn addiction and how to break free), as well as a book on spiritual abuse (which I have not read).
I, personally, would also continue to trust NLL’s recommendations for therapists on their referral list. From what I understand they have a pretty thorough screening process… but of course this does not guarantee the particular skill-level of each therapist nor the fit for any particular person. What I suggest is if one is an MH victim/survivor, one could simply ask what the therapist thinks of MH and Driscoll before proceeding to set that first appointment. It’s unfathomable to me that a therapist who is immersed in Cloud/Townsend materials and Yerkovich’s HWL could ever embrace much of Driscoll’s (at least former, if not current) stance regarding sex, male-female relationships and authority/submission. In fact, Dr. Cloud has recently over the past couple of months on NLL adamantly renounced the kind of sick thinking insecure/controlling “Christian” men spout at their wives, “woman, you have to submit to me because I’m the man!” When/if I locate that exact broadcast date, I’ll post it here.
In the meantime, let’s continue to pray for all involved, and let’s continue to walk in…
Grace and Truth, and…
Freedom!
Disturbing….
I have started a “survivors” site as a place to collect people’s personal accounts of what they experienced at Mars Hill.
The address is: marshillrefuge.blogspot.com
Hi Free from MH,
I just visited your blog and am, as I tried unsuccessfully to comment, “so glad you are here!” I hope and pray many find you and tell their stories.
God bless you and keep you as you minister to the broken, the entrapped, the escaping and the now free!
Freedom! And yes, Gal 5:1 !!!
“I would also be surprised Steve would endorse Driscoll’s book if in it Driscoll was spouting what we have seen highlighted in this blog.”
You are in for a big surprise then.
So sorry.
See: http://www.thewartburgwatch.com
Hi Ted,
I went to the link and maybe because it’s late or ? I couldn’t find anything referring to Mark’s new book, assuming that is what you were pointing me to–a summary of the book which would show “Driscoll spouting what we have seen highlighted in this blog.” I don’t have the time in this moment to read all the Driscoll articles posted at wartburg, so maybe it was embedded in one of those. Could you specify where you wanted me to look on their website?
Freedom!
Thanks to you, Freedom, and also all who are praying for those involved in looking into concerns about some of the effects Mark Driscoll’s new book’s teachings. Again, I too have highly recommended NLL, and am praying that I will still be able to a as much as I have been(I can always recommend SO much of their past work –and am SO thankful for them–yet I still am very concerned about their decision of promotion of Mark Driscoll and his book, Freedom, and also about how they will speak to the issues that need to be addressed because of it. As they have taken turns reminding us–”repentance does not bring instant maturity/character”–and as someone else said, a change of heart (speaking of Mr. Driscoll) comes before a change in habit–and we may still be teaching with too much of our old habits to be teaching others safely. And while I know there can be oversights, the seriousness of issues being reported ( including page numbers cited, to crosscheck) in respectful Christian pastoral reviews(links at end of post) really show the necessity for “reviewing well” before recommending–and especially selling–something–and especially something that can be used and “trusted” by persons who may be in a vulnerable time (I’ve been there–we sometimes don’t have the discernment to “conscientiously differ” with questionable views that are being adamantly presented, and “promoted” by “trusted” other.) I’m waiting for a copy of the book, so that I can read myself, yet these two reviews(amid many others), while respectful and charitable, raise Very serious issues, unless these two (again, among many others) are very mistaken in their ability to read, comprehend and report adequately (one is a Christian prof.–college–so has some experience with “this generation” , and is also an asst. pastor–Denny Burk; the other, a pastor and counselor–Jeremy Pierre–so both have some experience in seeing how ideas and “intentions” often affect people when “put into practice”–over time.) Here’s the 2 links:
http://www.dennyburk.com/my-review-of-mark-driscolls-real-marriage/
***please read the “comments” of long-time–30+ yr.–health care worker “anonymous” on Jan 3 , and echoing of that observation by another, “retired women”–also health care worker. ( also “Mary Eizabeth” on Jan 3–hers on “destructive comparisons”. ) Since reading these I’ve done a little more research, and anyone considering following some of the Driscoll sexual belief/practices (as reported in the reviews)really, please, needs to do much more research concerning the “health and other risks” that are mentioned in these two (and many other) reviews, as well as any comments following them!!
And here are the other: respectul and very important observations for all to reflect upon when prayerfully trying to discern how best to help one another (Jeremy Pierre’s review):
http://www.dennyburk.com/jeremy-pierre-reviews-real-marriage/#more-16653
Thankyou again, Freedom and all , for the groundwork you have laid to help us all caringly and more knowledgeably work through these difficult times together. “He who has begun a good work in (us:) ) will be faithful to complete it!” Amen. Alleluia! Pat:)
‘sorry–’not sure if this is a “double post” of this–my computer is doing strange things!
Hi Freedom and Ted–Here are two charitable, respectful while cautioning, reviews by reflective, seemingly seasoned Christian pastors. While I differ on some of their theology and application, I think their questions and concerns about what seem to be Mark’s beliefs and recommendations on marital sexual behavior are important to very seriously consider, even if we have not yet read his book ourselves.(they cite specific page numbers for reference and accuracy checking–but I don’t have a book yet)
I think it very important to consider others’ (professional and lay) specific study and experience as well as our own, and to look at/learn about how this book can commonly be applied–and seriously address others’ important risk assessments stemming from that material, just as I hope and pray others come alongside me and us all when they have concerns. We need the entire Body to caringly and respectfully share what they’re questioning, and be part of refining our understanding of our “being made in His Image, yet still having parts needing healing”–and finding ways that bring us closer to His Image of and “for” us.
Here’s those 2 links:
http://www.dennyburk.com/my-review-of-mark-driscolls-real-marriage/
http://www.credomag.com/2012/01/11/real-marriage-the-truth-about-sex-friendship-and-life-together/
‘hopeful in what the Lord is doing through this all, Pat
http://sojo.net/blogs/2012/01/22/he-said-she-said-driscolls-real-marriage-really-not
Just posted this under an old post. This link is to the Sojourner’s God’s Politic’s review on the book. Thought you would find it interesting.
I saw Henry Cloud at a Women of Faith event and he was pretty callous. Maybe he and Mark Driscoll can make a highly inappropriate radio show together and leave NLL out of the mix.
P.S. Until I read Matthew Paul Turner’s post about the Mars Hill “excommunication,” I had no idea the cult-like abuse that took place under Driscoll’s reign. I’m praying for all of you.
I’d like to know what you mean in regards to “harmful attitudes toward women.” I’d like to learn more about this and how it pertains to MH and Driscoll. Do you have some examples of this?
See my post in response to your question below.
Thank you lovineliberal. I responded in #34 (brief response).
Amy, thanks for your prayers. I’m curious, what do you mean by “pretty callous?” in re: to Henry Cloud? And what did Cloud say/do that led you to believe he was being so? When evaluating people (whether or not I want to learn from them or be their friend, etc.), I really try to go by patterns of behavior and ways of being in the world versus a one time (or even a couple of times) experience of them…
Brandi, if you scroll through the various 48 titles in this blog, you will find posts which pertain to your inquiry.
Freedom!
New Life Live has heard and acted upon our concerns! Thankyou freedom and all who have shared important information, knowledge and prayer concerning many hurtful harmful (even though unintentional) effects Mr. Driscoll and his ministry have had on many–New Life Live now sees the seriousness of concern and has responded very graciously and appropriately, as I see it, in an email–which I’m sure others have received also.(if you have not yet looked at your email, “freedom”, please do soon). They, as we all, are trying to do much in pressuring times, and have learned from this. I am thankful they now have new awareness and knowledge(through many persons’ experiences, and also information through the links from this site I would believe) and could be able to pass that along to others–as well as add their prayers!! I still have serious wonderings/concerns about some modeling and recommendations they have lately (and am so thankful for others:) )–yet I now know that they will seriously consider new and/or others’ well-researched information. Again, we all need to try to prayerfully “come alongside” one another in caring, yet sometimes also very teachable yet firm and well reasoned ways Thankfully, the Lord loves and is with us all–and you have so often modelled well, freedom!:) Thankyou again! Pat:)
I would love to see this email.
Larry Sonnenburg, President of NLM, gave me permission to quote his email (see below). I then replied to that asking a few questions, and I am quoting his reply underneath.
“Dear ____,
I want to apologize to you for my slow response to your concern about Mark Driscoll appearing on our radio program. I had a heavy travel schedule of late…
“I want you to know that we acknowledge the mistake we made having him on the program, and I take responsibility for that. When the request came in, I shared with the person handling the request that I had seen him speak a few years back at a church denominational function, and he gave an outstanding talk on knowing our Christology. I was quite impressed with him. I was not aware of the issues you and a few others brought up. I promise that we’ll do a better job screening guests in the future.
“Thank you for your understanding, and please forgive us for not doing a better job screening.
Larry Sonnenburg
President
New Life Ministries
http://www.newlife.com”
These are the questions I included in my email response:
“1) May I quote you in your email in a new post on my blog?
2) Will there be any kind of public retraction?
3) Will Driscoll’s book be pulled from NLM’s website and bookstore? (it may already be so, I have not yet checked)”
He replied with,
“Yes, you may quote my email in your blog. We are not thinking of doing a public retraction—we think it will bring more attention to it, and to people who didn’t hear it the first time and we’d like to not do that. Over a week ago I asked for his book to be pulled and the radio broadcast he was on to be taken out of the archives on our website.
“I appreciate your support of New Life, financially and as an ambassador to others. All we want to do is present the truth in a truthful way and help people who are hurting and confused find healing and hope.
“Yours in Christ,
Larry”
My heart feels significantly lighter… I am much relieved! My faith and trust in NLM is more strong than ever.
Thank you, Lord Jesus!
Freedom!
Good!
Slowly but surely, we are winning.
Mara:
There are no “winners” in this – just a lot of pain and hurting.
Theo, I beg to differ.
Not on the part that there is a lot of pain and hurting, That part is completely true and I never want to diminish in in anyway when I see that the truth is triumphing over the false doctrine that is hurting so many,
If I seem flippant in my, “we are winning,” comment, I apologize for that.
But Freedom and I were talking about this three years ago when relatively few were speaking about it. It seemed we were calling the alarm against the hurtful doctrines all by ourselves. I know we weren’t. There were others. But there were precious few voices. And I kept looking and looking for Mars Hill survivors to join in. Three years isn’t really that long, but it seemed to be at the time. I don’t know why it has taken this long. And I absolutely don’t fault the survivors. It must have been hell. And it is brave for them to stand up now and be heard. So I’m thankful that headway is being made today because the sooner Mars Hill is exposed, the more new people we can spare the pain and hurting.
I still believe that making progress is winning.
And you are still free to disagree
Brandi asked, “I’d like to know what you mean in regards to “harmful attitudes toward women.”
Read this:
http://www.theologyforwomen.org/2012/02/our-review-of-real-marriage-by-mark-and.html
What more can be said?
Update on New Life Live–lesson to learn/be reminded of…–even with best of intentions “stuff happens–or doesn’t”. I’ve recently had a helpful experience with New Life Live. They are so big and so busy (especially after all the cuts they’ve had to make–staffing included–yet more pressing needs than ever out there–so I thought I should (2 wks ago) check to make sure that Pres. Larry Sonnenburg’s information to us all about removing Mark Driscoll’s book had been able to be completed. Thankfully the Lord, I believe, had nudged me to, and I found that the book had been left on their web store. I immediately contacted Larry S. –just letting him know that so that he would for sure know, along with the last few comments of concern and relief from this blog. He immediately, graciously and thankfully recontacted me with assurance that, since someone had previously assured him before that it had been removed, he would now make very sure of that happening. I checked later that day and it had been removed from all facets of the store that I could find.
“The lesson to be learned/relearned/continuously reminded (Large note to myself) “: Since we all have more to do and less time and resources to do it these days, we can really be helpful to one another by graciously checking “for”, NOT “up on”, one another when something of this importance has happened. That way all involved will be able to have more of the effect we hope and pray for–we’re all on the same team. And when we differ with someone–even Mark Driscoll–we can continue to approach them in a prayerful, gracious and friendly, even when very firm and specific. That way we will not be “contributing or easily inciting/eliciting ” some/more of the very behaviors/attitudes we say we wish/believe/know need stopping and transforming
Praying that we’ll all continue to find in Him the love and energy to “keep on keeping on” the path He is calling us to…and as some have said, when “it seems like painful Good Friday–or the despairing of Holy Saturday– because of Jesus’ “keeping on keeping on” we now know that ” Resurrection Easter Sunday” is coming!! praying His Strength and Faith and Love for us all, and to share, Pat
Sadly, while adults seem to be directly having more knowledge and support now, the children are the “next ones targeted” in a methodical way (with “age appropriate” levels of method being decided by a teacher–I wonder what she really thinks/believes about Mark’s statements about beginning grooming 2 yr. olds for specific Mars Hill church doctine leadership….) I hope and pray that child development and mental health professionals (as you and your colleagues and many reading/having read your blog, freedom–thankyou again) will be among those who are made aware of his beliefs and plans–and clarify and educate–and continue to pray earnestly for this to be stopped or transformed. Pat ps here’s the title and link:
pjmmsauer@gmail.com has shared a video with you on YouTube:
The Vision for Mars Hill Kids
“What if we built a Nickelodeon-type studio? What if we put together short, punchy, age-appropriate, Bible-based lessons about Jesus for kids with characters and fun and interaction? What if we recorded that and distributed it to all the campuses and made it available elsewhere as well for those who wanted to use it? And so this is what we’ve been working on with Mars Hill Kids.” –Pastor Mark
This clip is taken from the sermon “Jesus and Children,” preached by Pastor Mark Driscoll at the Mars Hill Church Ballard campus in Seattle, Washington, on May 15, 2011. It is the 74th sermon in our sermon series on the Gospel of Luke.
To watch the full sermon, visit http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/luke/jesus-and-children
I should have added this to info above–
Here is more specific and developed “commentary” from the Wartburg Watch which quotes an article cited in this excerpt (then you can follow links, citations and develop your own and more detailed understanding)
“Now that you have an understanding of Mark Driscoll’s “vision” for the kids’ ministry at Mars Hill, let’s take a look at an article published on January 31, 2012, in The Stranger entitled “Church or Cult: The Control-Freaky Ways of Mars Hill”. Here is an excerpt that addresses the grooming of Martian kids:
“Whatever the controversies, Driscoll shows nothing but confidence in himself and in the future of Mars Hill, including a plan for the next generation called “Mars Hill Kids.” “I want to start preparing our children for ministry at age 2,” he said in a video last summer. He has proposed building a “Nickelodeon-type studio” to broadcast kids’ shows and indoor play structures at every Mars Hill property to attract kids, “especially the boys, the kinesthetic learners, so they can get a little activity.”
There would be special child worship time conducted by adults and handpicked child apprentices. That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children’s version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework to ensure, Driscoll says, “an integration between church and home.” Driscoll has also said he wants to commission a new illustrated children’s Bible. “Kinda cool, dark, a lot of the bloody Old Testament stories so the boys’ll like it, too,” he said on one video, winking. “We’re gonna do it Mars Hill–style.”
The point of Mars Hill Kids, Driscoll says, is continuity:
So that when the kids grow up, they don’t do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: “Well, I’m ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I’ve been doing this curriculum since I was 2! Of course I’m going to join a community group: I’ve been in one since I’ve been in a diaper. And I know how to sing songs, and I’m okay with video because that’s what I’ve been doing for a really long time—so I’m an old-school, 18-year-old veteran.”
What does it mean that Driscoll imagines keeping people, who’ve been studying his Doctrine from the age of 2, in Mars Hill after high school? Does he want to keep kids from growing up and moving away from Seattle to go to college, start jobs, and begin their own lives? Or does he imagine that, in 20 years, Mars Hill churches will be everywhere?
Either way, Driscoll imagines his flock—the membership model, the community groups, the Doctrine—as permanent. Womb to tomb. Just as long as you don’t ask too many questions.”