Today I was feeling a bit down having had an email interaction with a self-proclaimed “theologian” regarding a completely different issue than MH and MD. Despite the bit of research I had done, he kept stating I couldn’t trust any of the sources I had cited and instead I needed to read the pastor in question for myself. Okay, I understand about going to the source and all that, but how much poison does one need to ingest before one realizes, “Yeah, it’s making me ill”? And why would one want to go back and purposefully imbibe more? This “theologian” would also not dialogue with me re: the points of challenge I had brought up, but rather seemed to speak down to me, making moral judgments about me and insinuating I was part of the those haters who just sit around on the internet criticizing everyone who doesn’t think just like them. Ugh!
But I try to take all critiques seriously and to see what I can glean from them. So I thought long and hard about what he said, and I applied that to this blog on MH and MD… I began to ask myself a series of questions: Am I just “out to get Mark?” Are my motives to tear down MH for the sake of mean spirited vengeance (although I really didn’t get hurt at MH, just alarmed and I got out rather quickly, so not much to take vengeance on)? What if I’ve made Driscoll to be worse than he is? What if what I’m reporting on can’t hold water? Am I being destructive rather than helpful for God’s people?
While all of that was rumbling around within my mind, I did my weekly “practice run” search in Google to see what is currently showing up when I type in “Mars Hill Church Abuse.” In my present frame of mind you can imagine my sense of validation when I found the following. I’ve cut and pasted some of the forum’s comments, anonymously (but you can visit their site as a visitor, so their forum names/aliases are not top secret or anything)… This thread in their forum was posted at the beginning of April when I was at my old blog site (marshillchurchabuse.blogspot.com), and had recently posted about the Firing of the Elders and the By-Laws.
Anyway, I’m feeling pretty vindicated right about now… and I think I’ve got my vision/mission firmly back in place! 🙂
The following is found at:
This situation happend a few years ago and it is all true. For a while, the two fired elders, who I think were paid, spoke out and then abruptly stopped. All the info about the by laws, etc are true. Driscoll took over completely and has some hand picked yes men. It was a planned coup. There are a few youtube videos where Mark is speaking about this and he is downright mean. You can tell where he is daring anyone to question him.
Actually, this is happening in many SBC churches, too. It is especially prevelant in mega churches. The sin of lording it over is alive and well in our churches. A sign of the times, I think…this almost lazerlike sole focus on hierarchies. It is everywhere.
[Re: Post #8. Christian Taliban & Christian Women Donning Berkas]
“He even warns women not to rely on or trust in older women [contrary to Scripture] because they are likely to be busybodies and gossips, unless they are especially spiritual and very submissive.
“Fifty three minutes: Driscoll describes how he protects his wife from other women who want to go have coffee with her and get to know her, because, guess what, “that is Satanic,” and he says he knows what they’re really up to.”
Wonder what he’s afraid of? This sounds extremely insecure and controlling to me.
Reminds me of the times my husband used to mock my fellowship with women “are you going to go and play with Chrissie today?” (in a voice dripping with contempt)
Chris (not “Chrissie”) is my 68 yr old female mentor. If he could have got away with it, I’m sure he would have forbid me seeing her, but I had come out of the fog enough not to allow myself to be controlled like that.
After reading that article, if only half of it is true, it confirms everything I *knew* in my spirit when listening to Driscoll before. You know, once you’ve lived with one of these types and made it long enough to recognize them for what they are, you can smell them a mile away. He just has it all over him. I used to feel kind of guilty for not liking him, back in the day…I just couldn’t stand him, but couldn’t put my finger on it…just the arrogance…and yet all these other people just LOVED him… I thought, huh, must just be a personality style thing, I guess. Later I would come to realize what it was that I found so disturbing.
What is shocking on that blog is how many many many commenters are furious at the blog linked to above and others like them for existing and for reporting on such things. Driscoll is so effective at presenting the Gospel, they say, so leave him alone and stop airing this “in-house” fight. Driscoll is leading people to Christ, which means he’s above criticism. Driscoll is an “untouchable,” above the masses. I mean, people practically worship this guy!
I hate that kind of thinking. He’s got truth and poison in the same breath, but because there’s truth in there, we’re just supposed to cover our eyes at the poison? What kills me is how these are the VERY SAME PEOPLE who get angry about books like The Shack, etc, because they say that the poison they feel is in the book is dangerous, so don’t read it even though there is also truth in it and many people who would not otherwise consider Christ are now becoming followers. *shakes head* I hate the double standards.
I KWYM. It was not apparent that he was that controlling just by listening to one or two or his video’s. The more we hear , the worse it gets. And to think that young men and women are listening to this. The young men grab at it, because it is close to the sin nature to elevate self. The young women feel obligated because it is close to their sin nature to adulate men, but also cringe because the degree is worse than their sinful inclinations. Such bondage. How horrible.
Thank you for listening to and making an excellent summary of Driscoll’s message. I have to say as one who does ministry in deliverance from your notes I believe Pastor Driscoll is in need of deliverance from the unclean spirit of “the hatred of women”. His actions he expressed concerning his wife and how he sees women are certainly operations I’ve come to know as coming from the influence of this unclean spirit.
BTW – in deliverance ministry my husband and I have NOT found that we deal with “mostly” women – it is definitely 50/50. I will also add the hardest person we’ve every had to deal with was a man who saw himself as the “head and priest” of his family. He wanted to control every issue concerning prayer for his family. He would “demand” we take authority over the unclean spirits he had decided they needed deliverance from — and would get terribly upset when we refused because we did not discern that these were the issue with his family members.
If Pastor Driscoll ever came for deliverance counseling with my husband and myself I do believe from what you summarized, Lin, that we would be addressing the unclean spirit of “hatred of women”.
I took the excerpts of his teaching from the blog linked to in the first comment. However, I did listen to the peasant princess when it first came out. I could hardly get through it. It made me sick.
I agree with W that he has a deep seated hatred of women. But I think this is because Mark has to have an enemy. Probably always has as that is the only way he could make a living. I am starting to believe that emergent was not profitable enough for him in terms of influence. Too much competition. But not a lot of competition for a counterculture reformed guy.
Women are the perfect target as enemies becasue he can mask it as ‘doctrine’ and it is acceptable. For example: Why do so few people get offended when he alludes that all women are gossips? How can the men and women in that audience not see through such comments from him? Because he has made this primary salvic doctrine and turned it all into a work of salvation. I think men like this are worse than Rome for works salvation. They deny it but it is right there!
He markets his schitk as ‘counterculture’. All he does is slap a tatoo on a fish add works that are feminine and masculine and call it Christianity. It is a business. And he gets paid a lot for his speaking gigs.
I also suspect Driscoll may be a Narcissist and whatever goes along with that.
Where is the outspoken concern for his behavior from other well known pastors? A few do but not many.
I also wonder if any one else from among us who suffered spousal abuse had their teeth set on edge as they recognized the pattern of cutting the victim off from all sources of help in his disguise “I do this for her protection”. I know from my own past and counseling that this is a common action of abusers with control issues. This IS NOT Godly counsel coming from his mouth. It is a form of abuse.
It makes me so angry to hear him present this form of abuse as Godly counsel. (I find it to be much the same abuse done in the name of God that the women of the “no longer quiverful” blog are addressing.)
It makes me so very sad to know that many in the church have become so deceived they have become unable to discern the abuse of women in his message.
I am also left wondering who God sent in to be a help to his wife and was cut off by him in the name of “protection”. My heart breaks for her and cries out for her liberty and freedom. I pray she breaks out of her cage as Clay and many other women have done and walk in her God given freedom as a woman of God.
When they have been outspoken in an area for a long time and made it part of their entire persona, made a living from it, it is almost impossible to see another interpretation or even admit there is another interpretation to even be considered. It has defined who they are
I wrote this and can see how come could say this would be naive. I want to clarify that the anger we see coming from those who tout these doctrines is taught to them. They see it as righteous anger.
The thing with Piper [& Driscoll], etc, is that they allow no disagreement. You are labeled, perhaps prayed for and put in a category as rebellious, not believing the Word, etc. That is not naive at all. That is protecting your turf. You learn real quick not to question or disagree in those circles. Because there is no real civil discussion of differences in interpretations. Yours is simply wrong and that is that.
(NASB) Proverbs 28:10 He who leads the upright astray in an evil way Will himself fall into his own pit,…
(NASB) Proverbs 28:16 A leader who is a great oppressor lacks understanding,…
I had a pastor like Driscoll once.
…The big issue is control… He didn’t put women down, but he sure did make Jesus out to be a tough guy. It’s the same spirit. Control can show up anywhere. It’s just if you add a hatred towards women to it, it makes it worse.