Updated 10/14/09 (see at bottom of post for update)
Freedom for Captives is about liberating people from that which binds them.
Isa. 61:1 is my calling, my mission in life, namely:
“…to bring Good News to the afflicted, to bind up the brokenhearted,
TO PROCLAIM FREEDOM FOR THE CAPTIVES
and release from darkness for the prisoners.”
My focus at this time is about exposing what I believe to be church and spiritual abuse occurring at Mars Hill Church, Seattle.
In this blog you will find postings which cover:
Mars Hill Church Abuse; Mark Driscoll; Spiritual Abuse; Church Abuse; Psychological Abuse; Former Members of Mars Hill; By-Laws; Controlling Personalities in the Church; Narcissistic Leaders & Other Character Disordered Leaders; My Brief Experience of MHC & Abusive Systems; “Christianized” Misogyny; “Wives Submit!”; “Obey Your Leaders!”; Membership Requirements; and more…
My husband posed some good questions to me awhile ago on an outing. He was wondering as to my desire to expose MH when I had not attended there other than very briefly checking it out, and since I had therefore, according to him, not been particularly hurt by the system.
I told him, “That’s a very good question.” I reminded him to “Keep in mind that when we bumped into MH and MD I was still recovering from a horribly abusive situation which involved extreme efforts and partial success at mind control by a completely–and now understood foolishly–trusted ‘spiritual authority’ (aka: pastor). When I realized that you and I had even entertained becoming a part of MH once I’d begun to see the extent of red flags pointing to an abusive, controlling church system and traits of a very controlling and apparently abusive pastor, I was a bit freaked out. I was somewhat traumatized by that fact alone.”
I went on to explain to him that MH and MD scratched a fairly recent scab, and it hurt because of the inherent danger to us, and even more so, vicariously through the extremely painful stories I was reading about in my research of what sounded like abuse at MH. So there was that–it was the timing, not the time attended in that system.
“Secondly,” I said, “I feel like I have a voice now. I feel stronger now. Previously, the abusive pastor was busy killing off much of my voice, but at this point in time, there is no way I can foresee that I will allow anyone else to silence me. When I took a good look at MH and MD, I didn’t care how huge the system was–I might be a David and it might be Goliath, but, to change analogies, the trumpet had to be sounded. And even more importantly,” I added, “I did NOT want to do this!” And somewhat tongue in cheek I added, “That’s almost always a good sign that it might be a calling from God, when you don’t want it.
I shook my head and continued, “God would not let it go. Every time I prayed, read the Word, every time I read one more thing about what was going on at MH, or heard one more sermon where MD was coming across in a somewhat or blatantly abusive manner, or read one more account of the wreckage in another woman’s life from having attended there, I felt the Holy Spirit saying, ‘If not you, then who? Whom can I send?’ I got the impression he was gently prodding me forward in this because no one else was bringing together the various ‘data points’ I had gathered and put them in one place. That, along with some of my professional training in the mental health field, my personal experience of spiritual/church abuse, and my devotion to Him, were all things He could use. So,” I told my husband, “Basically, for all those reasons, mostly the third one: God’s persistence in pressing this MH burden upon me, I am bringing to light some hidden and not so hidden things about Mars Hill rather than exposing other potential or actual abusive systems.” (I think he was a little concerned I might begin taking on any number of abusive church systems and pastors!).
Some people will insist, “the Lord told me…!” as a means of deterring any challenge to what they are doing. Please hear my heart: I am not trying to claim that because I felt the Lord leading me this way that any of that cannot be challenged, because of course it can be. None of us hears God perfectly. And it’s not the case that I am unwilling to give Driscoll that same grace for also NOT hearing God perfectly, because I am willing. But what I cannot do, with good conscience, is sit by while so many are taking in, along with a hearty stew, varying amounts of what I can only consider to be poison.
The following is an example from one of my posts which makes a good summary of what this site is about in exposing and challenging MHC and Driscoll’s abusive/controlling leadership style:
As a mental health counselor and a survivor of spiritual abuse, I perceive what appears to be many signs of cult like control and spiritual abuse at MHC:
.
Controlling Pastor with “Yes Men” Elders;
.
No Talk Rule;
.
No Dissent;
.
Emphasis on Submission and Obedience;
.
Shunning of “Unrepentant” Former Members;
.
Dis-fellowshipping “Questioners” and Critical Thinkers;
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By-Laws Removing Accountability of Pastor/Elders;
.
Mind and Thought Control;
.
Membership Covenant and Financial Giving Pledge Required;
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“Biblical” Counseling Only, if Referred Out, Must Sign Release Form (no confidentiality allowed);
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Kangaroo Court Firing of Two Elders Who Dared to Question;
.
Extreme Gender Role Enforcement;
.
Members Must Attend Accountability/”Community” Groups
.
… Scary!
(Similar lists of abusive churches and leaders are found in VanVonderen’s, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, and Dr. Enroth’s Churches That Abuse)
Here are some examples of major red flags:
In the following video clip, Mark SEEMS TO BE confessing his pride… then watch out for the one-two punch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6mmTXVTil8&feature=related
This feels extremely manipulative and it puts the unwary in bondage. After all, how can one argue with such “humility”? I mean, the man “confessed,” didn’t he? Not really. Typical of abusive controllers, Driscoll seems to have admitted to the minimum while then blame shifting and accusing those who would dare call him to account. That would be spiritual / church abuse.
In another clip he appears to squash all dissent:
Shut Up & Do What You’re Told
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM7dCj7QWKs&NR=1
In yet another, he seems to condemn those who would dare question him, he says, “They’re sinning through questioning, their heart is not right.”
Drink the Kool Aid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dSA5Vs9huc
And lastly, as to my understanding regarding the biblical teaching of gender roles in the home, in the church, and in life in general, please see:
http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/about/biblical_equality.shtml
Thank you for visiting my Blog. I hope it is of help to you and to those you care for in setting the captives free!
In Him always,
Freedom4Captives
8/28/09 P.S. As to Obnoxious, Unclear, Sarcastic, and/or Demeaning Comments:
I just received one of those rare gems of obnoxious, unclear, sarcastic and demeaning comments. These are usually pointless and the only intent, obviously, is to jab. Any other purpose is usually cloudy. I have always posted these, but no more. They are too tiresome and disrespectful and, well, pointless. They are a waste of my time and any potential reader’s time.
For you Driscoll Defenders out there prone to such “drive-bys,” I will post your comments, despite my disagreeing with many or all of your statements, IF you can behave like an adult and hopefully, if you are one, like a Christian as well. This means that while involving yourself in this discourse you are capable of showing some measure of respect and of making your arguments based on EVIDENCE and logic, rather than merely ranting against me or calling into question all manner of my personhood due to my bringing to light some unpleasant truths about your most beloved leader (and might I suggest, your “mini god”?). Such unpleasant behavior is not unexpected as this is common in abusive systems: the one who points out the problem becomes the problem; but it will no longer be tolerated here at freedom4captives.
10/14/09 Update
Freedom 4 Captives is taking a new turn… I’m in the middle of launching my own business, and so I do not have much time and energy for this. But more importantly, I feel that I’ve been obedient to the Lord in speaking out the truth about that which was presented to me regarding apparent church/spiritual abuse at Mars Hill, mostly at the hands of the lead pastor, Mark Driscoll. I was responsible for the information given to me. I have made that known to you here on this blog. For me to go further would entail my policing Driscoll–which I’m really not interested in doing.
Driscoll will continue to be Driscoll, meaning, he will continue to be the Driscoll who–until I am informed otherwise–appears to be abusing God’s flock and setting up a system over which he can rule as supreme. That is my take. Based on my perceptions of Driscoll’s behaviors, his words and apparent attitudes toward women and people in general, until Driscoll falls on his knees, weeping and repenting before the throne of grace, and until he allows Jesus, our only true healer of our broken hearts, to reach down and do a deep healing within him, he will continue to act out of his own pain, his own suppressed and repressed traumas. I pray for that day! I pray for Mark.
Dan. 12:10 reads, “Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.”
When we are ruling over a church in the spirit of those false shepherds whom God condemned in Ez 34, we are not pleasing God, we are not evidencing Christ nor His Spirit in our lives, we are not leading as Jesus leads and instructs us to lead, but rather we have become like the gentiles, lording it over one another, seating ourselves in “Moses’ seat.” This kind of dictatorship, similar to that which I perceive in Driscoll and in Mars Hill, is flat out condemned by God in Scripture over and over again! My point is that there are many Driscolls in the world as well as many of those who are on the polar opposite of Driscoll’s legalism, preaching liberal heresies– and all of these will continue doing what they’re doing… but those who submit to the Lord and to His Word, living by His Spirit, must continue doing that, following and obeying the Lord in true holiness despite what others are choosing to do.
2 Tim 3:13-14 “But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of…”
I invite any of you who happen upon or who have been tracking this site to please keep me informed if you know of any new important issues or spiritual/church abuse or false teaching at Mars Hill. Make a comment here or anywhere else in this blog, and please cite the source of your information. I’d like to keep this blog up to date so people can be informed, but I no longer feel the call nor the need for me personally to keep track on Mark. This blog, as it stands, is enough I would hope for the wise and wary to do their own research and think twice about committing themselves to what looks to be a very controlling and cult-like church system led by what seems to be a spiritually immature despot (compare Driscoll to 1 Tim 3, and, well, to Jesus!).
Rev 22:11-12 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.”
In Christ and in His Glorious Truth and Love!
FREEDOM!!!
This page has the following sub pages.
Wow, there is so much here to read. Thanks again for all your hard work to pull it together.
From one of your posts: “The following is written by Lauren Sandler and found on a blogspot listed below:
For Judy Abolafya, a young mother in her early thirties, it was harder to come around to Driscoll’s version of what a woman should be…”
This post describes a pre-conversion lifestyle that appears to celebrate a creative, self empowered young woman and how she is shut down by virtue of the privlege of belonging to Mars Hill.
That to me is so mind boggling. How do we lose ourselves in the process and get talked into being different than how our creator made us.
The power of grace to teach a heart to fear and then that fear relieve, that same grace that saves a wretch like me…that grace is so powerful, so life altering, that we will do anything to hang on to that tranformational, life changing hour we first believed. That is how Mars Hill and its pastor can take someone like Judy Abolafya and strip her of her personal identity. by telling her very salvation, her very identity in Christ, her ability to belong to the family of God depends on her submitting her will…and grace no longer even has a toe hold in the door. It has been replaced by another god…fear!
Paul was pretty clear about people preaching another gospel. He declared, Let them be cut off!!! Anethema. If Paul can say it, I hope people visiting this blog can choose grace over condemnation and stand with Paul. For by grace are you saved and not by an act of the flesh…or a mandate from Mars Hill. run people run…become whole in Jesus’s name.
Hey Liberalinlove,
Good to see you over here! Thanks for following my site. I appreciate your comment, and that is exactly what grieves my heart to no end is having ANYBODY, male or female, stripped of their very identity, this makes my heart weep no matter what the context, but even worse, in a context claiming to be one of “Jesus’ love and salvation…” I want to scream and cry at the same time. It’s just so wrong, so warped. Ha, and Driscoll prides himself in MHC being so NOT legalistic. Yeah right. Just because they can swig down a beer or two or have a glass of wine, wearing piercings and tattoos… I don’t need to participate in any of that nor do I need to abstain to be free in Christ. Evidently by the looks of things at MHC, doing those “hipster” things, does not guarantee that you are free in Christ.
Driscoll appears to me to be scary Legalistic… cult-like legalistic and controlling. But “no, he’s not legalistic because they can cuss, wear funky t-shirts, drink, and play grunge…” Woohoo. It’s like smoke and mirrors, sleight of hand, “Here, you can do all these things, see, you are free compared to all those other lame churches…” and then he strips them of all our Christ-given, blood-bought freedoms, such as having a separate, autonomous self that CHOOSES to bow the knee only to Jesus. “Call no man Father… Call no man Teacher…”
I’ve been visiting and commenting on various blogs and putting so much info here in the wee hours and responding to a few comments here, so I don’t know where I wrote this, (hmm, I think it was here to Provender) but I remember writing how I felt at MHC, they put one arm around you saying, “We want to love you and help you,” then with the other they swing in a fist to meet your gut, “But you’re glorying in your sin, your gluttony, your alcoholism. Stop that behavior!” or worse, the fist to the gut swoops in but they say, “We love you just for who you are… but you must let us strip you of your identity in order for you to be okay with Jesus and with us.”
I was talking to a psychologist about this and I said, “It’s like Stepford Christians,” and he said, “It IS Stepford Christians!”
response fom my friend about your blog!
From my buddy G:
Mars Hill Church and Mark have been charged with being a cult since almost their inception. He talks about it and after having been to his church many, many times I have a hard time believing this stuff. I think because of the fact that they are growing and have members who may have problems you can’t condemn the whole church. I will tell you that Pastor Mark addresses these accusations constantly and frankly I don’t think they’ll ever go away. M (friend) is generally a pretty good judge of character and knows theology well enough to be on guard regarding these kinds of things. I think I would really have to know the motives of this person and would want to talk with her personally before I believed everything she says.
I’ll ask M about it also. She’s probably already seen it!!
g
Hi Liberalinlove,
Perhaps you could suggest that your friend, G (and her friend, M) read through some of my earlier posts about the red flags re MH that stood out to my husband and I almost immediately upon our attending both the church and a community group. It turned out to be a very brief bit of “field research,” in that it gave me a gestalt (overall) feel of the place and how the people, at least in that one community group, interact.
Those two experiences were followed up by listening to many of MD’s sermons, watching several podcasts, reading Vintage Church, by MD, and another book which he said was his “favorite” which had a bizarre view of how to do counseling/therapy–BIZARRE! Having received extensive training and a post graduate degree in mental health counseling, I have some grounds for making that assessment. Having been a Christian for decades, I think I have some grounds for making that assessment from a Scriptural lens as well. Added to that all the research I did which I am trying to pull together into one place, here, and both G and M may get some new insight as they read the results of these efforts in these posts.
A lot of people who are “very Christian” or “very spiritual,” or “very theological” still will not pick up on the fact that a church is abusive for a myriad of reasons (developmental maturity–e.g., twentysomethings are relatively young in figuring out their identity and creating boundaries and individuating from parents and other authority; past abuse; temperament–compliant or assertive, etc.; personal psychological health–depressed, anxious, Dependent or Narcissistic or Borderline Personality Disorders; addictions…).
I think I’ll copy a small article from Provender’s site http://pureprovender.blogspot.com/ which speaks to the difficult reality that many/most in the abusive system will not be able to see it, therefore when the person who is coming out of denial, experiencing the pain of being abused, begins to speak out, everyone looks at her like she has suddenly grown horns out of her head!
Thanks for posting!
Hi, I wanted to respond to your post on May 5th. I couldn’t figure out where to post so I am doing it here. Your post was reflecting on whether there was any truth to the feedback that you got from someone about whether you were being fair in your critique of Mars Hill.
It’s interesting because to simplify people into two categories (I know this is way oversimplification), you have your Introjectors and your Extrajectors. You appear to be an introjector – if someone says something, you immediately internalize it and ask yourself all sorts of question. The extrajector always turns it on the other person. (Most cult leaders and spiritually abusive leaders).
I know it helped you to google Mars Hill and have your feelings validated, but even if you were the only one who had this experience, it would still be valid.
I exposed a cult leader in Dallas and actually wrote a book about his cult. This fellow had always enjoyed positive press from the local media, as well as nationally. My book was the first negative publication and as you can imagine, stirred up quite a lot of controversy.
I think it is important that the other side of the story about Mars Hill be told. People can make up their own mind, but no one can invalidate your experience.
Peace,
Wendy
Author: I Can’t Hear God Anymore: Life in a Dallas Cult
website: http://www.dallascult.com
Wendy,
Thank you. I really needed that. Yes, I am learning and growing… One gets over one hurdle of “the fear of man” and another hits. That evening after posting the May 5 post, the Lord distinctly said to me, “You don’t need this person’s or that person’s approval to be okay. You’re okay with out it. You’re wanting their approval again, knock it off.” (He said this kindly, somewhat playfully, but serious too). And then He added, “Live for an Audience of One. Be at peace.”
And here you write this. Perfect! I mean, God’s goodness in confirming what he’s teaching me… Perfect!
And, as I’m sure you know with your having experienced abuse, nothing messes with a person’s mind more than abuse. It’s as if it by-passes everything you know (your frontal cerebral cortex) and, lodging elsewhere in your brain (perhaps the amygdala or the temporal lobes?) makes you doubt yourself and your perceptions… A couple of years under the heavy and intense mind control of an abuser priest (I wasn’t even of his particular faith!) who convinced me he was like a dad to me and I had to submit to him in order to be psychologically and spiritually healthy, and the whole world, well, my internal world, got turned on its head.
So thank you, dear Wendy, for your good word of encouragement and truth… I’ll look up your book.
And thank you for being a valiant warrior standing for truth in your fight against abuse, an abuser and an abusive system. People like you are my heroes! 🙂
Thank you for encouraging ME!
Hi. sorry to have posted and run! I have a fair amount of back and forth stuff with my friend that sent me the e-mail reply which I posted.
She has become a person who listens to fairly narrow or limited material anymore and does not imagine that any of it could be unhealthy. I had e-mailed your site to her with the hopes that she would check it out. Not sure if she did…or if she chose to ignore it because of her unquestioning faith in Mars Hill.
I know you will have your critics and the rest is like preaching to the choir. If anyone has experienced spiritual abuse, they’ll find comfort in this site. If they are still in the honeymoon phase of their church experience, then no amount of pointing out facts will help.
Somewhere in there are people who are starting to ask questions and starting to wonder. Those are the people you want to reach. The ones who need the courage to see MH for what it has become and to protect themselves.
No apologies for doing what you are doing. Even if one person is helped, you’ve done a good thing. And if you can keep someone from losing their faith, as we’ve seen happening on other S/A sites, you will have done an absolutely great thing.
Hi Liberalinlove,
You bring up some good points about critics and where people are at personally and in relationship with MH before they might be receptive to a challenge about MH. Not that I’ve got it down 100% either, not in what I present here (although I do try), nor in my own personal processing and healing.
I am tender in this area for so many reasons, and one of those is I would never, ever want to falsely accuse anyone of anything. I’m sure most of us have been misunderstood and mislabeled at one time or another in our lives, and we know, it really stings… deeply. I try to believe, at times, that MD on some levels really is more about seeing people come to Jesus than he is about controlling others, being lord of his church, and seeing his own press… but I keep being confronted with other aspects of his character and his methods and I keep seeing so much bloody fall out in the lives of others who are either currently trapped or who have escaped the MH system and MD’s condemnation and control.
Anyway, with all of that, I fall into doubt sometimes about what I’m doing with all of this. I am constantly praying about it. And each time I do new research and see those glaring church/spiritual abuse symptoms in MH and in MD, I roll up my sleeves again for “the fight.” But it grieves me. I just wish MD would seriously repent and allow the Holy Spirit to soften his heart, to preach and to live in TRUTH AND GRACE, not so much heavy handed truth, and, much of the time, what tastes like poison mixed with some truth. It’s lethal to digest…
So far, there have been 1188 visits to my site, which has only been up for one month (so much for that one critic who commented early on, “Is anyone even reading this?… Why waste your time?”).
Thank you for the encouragement, Liberalinlove!
And what did Jesus say! He didn’t come for the healthy but for the sick! Some may remain unharmed by MHC. And he may bring people to the Lord. You are doing your part in the body to be salt and light and to repair the breach.
I’m glad people are reading. Getting the word out now may ring a bell later when most needed. The results of your blog page really belong to the Lord. As long as your heart is right before Him, you can stand justified in what you are doing! And until S/A happens to someone, they can’t fully understand the damage it causes. Pick someone you trust to stay accountable to and let the rest roll off your back.
Good advice, Liberalinlove.
Thank you!
I applaud you for exposing false and oppressive leaders. Just as Paul confronted those who had sneaked into the church to bring them into bondage, so must we. May God bless and strengthen you in your efforts to expose false teachings designed to suppress the freedom we have in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Dear Victorious,
Thank you so much for the encouragement. I forget sometimes that when one stands up to fight any kind of darkness which oppresses God’s people, stealing, killing and destroying them–putting them into bondage as you rightly point out–it is like painting a big red and white target on one’s back… spiritual warfare ensues. I have been feeling discouraged, on many fronts, not just this one, and your words at this time are an answer to prayer.
Thank you.
Dude, seriously – get over it. You’re making us Christians look bad.
Haha “your comment is awaiting moderation”
I want you think about one thing – and once you read it, you’ll be forced to live with it. Its pretty unimpressive that you hide behind this website (with not details about who you are; you hide behind your blog) and its actually pretty scary how you bend the truth here. Like, right now for instance, you are moderating what is said here so that it seems like everyone agrees with you – you want everyone to believe this reality that is fiction; you are being terribly deceptive and worse, you’re doing under the guise of “help” and “support”.
The reality is evident by the fruit – MH is growing at an incredible rate despite its harsh message that everyone is a sinner and needs badly to repent. So how is it growing if the message is so unpopular? Because the Word of the Lord (no matter how harsh) does not return void; people are fleeing sexual immorality, repenting of sin and turning to Jesus by the thousands…and you call that ministry evil and deceptive?!
I wonder, what are the fruits of your blog or “ministry”?
Anyway, you would never let anything like that on your site so I eagerly await to be “moderated” 🙂 But just remember, you’ve been called out so you’re accountable for all this mess; you can’t exactly tell Jesus you weren’t aware of your folly 😛
John,
Here’s my answer for you. This came from another’s blog of which I am not familiar, but I appreciated some of his points here:
The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. – Luke 6:45
In the past DefCon has taken Mark Driscoll to task on several issues including his gutter mouth, lack of reverence for God, and even his mocking of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Most of the time I’ve played a less-than-active role in these matters as other contributors have mainly been on the front lines. Well today I’m getting in the trenches because I’m furious at Mark Driscoll and Pilgrim Radio for what transpired yesterday. Here’s the story:
My wife told me about a sermon Pilgrim Radio was playing on the radio as she was returning home from the grocery store with our young children in the car. She said that the man preaching (she had no clue who he was) was talking about “prostitutes,” “whores,” and “lesbians” and that he kept using these expressions as if trying to be shocking.
Bingo! My wife who knows very little—if anything—about Mark Driscoll hit the nail on the head in her evaluation of him.
She then told me that this same man began talking about wives in submission to their husbands and how oftentimes men abuse this. Instead of using an innocuous example to make his point, what did Mark “The Cussing Pastor” Driscoll do? Why, he did what apparently comes so natural for him: Driscoll expounded on such abuse by illustrating an example in which men misuse their wives’ submission by making them watch porn!
Are you kidding me? That’s the best example he could come up with? For crying out loud, my kids were in the car and heard this trash before their mother turned it off. Does this guy’s mind ever come up out of the gutter for air?
Consider, if you will, all the images that were conjured in the minds of those who heard this man go on about porn yet again (he was talking about porn in another “sermon” just a few weeks ago on Pilgrim Radio). Does he not care about all those who are struggling with pornography who listened to this “pastor” expecting to hear the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ preached in reverence, only to be hit with the last thing they would expect to hear from a “church”? How many men and women at that moment had impure thoughts rush into the battlefields of their minds because of Mark Driscoll’s seemingly insatiable appetite for discussing all things sexual in a public forum?
How dare he call himself a pastor and stand in a pulpit spewing such juvenile, perverse, and debase ideas under the guise of “preaching?”
…
When my wife described this to me I immediately knew who she was referring to … I also had turned on Pilgrim Radio and heard Mark Driscoll (in his usual flippancy to gain a laugh from the goats) talking about men liking noisy power tools because it drowns out the constant yapping of the wives they hate. What an obnoxious thing to say!
…
At this time I am in the process of doing the following three things:
…
3). All the Driscollite defenders who patrol the internet and swarm blogs such as this to offer excuses for their Golden Calf will have to find another soundboard for their approval of and winking at sin as their comments will no longer be welcome here. I refuse to provide a platform for their calling evil good and good evil.
…
Shame on Mark Driscoll for using the pulpit to advance his insatiable lust of the flesh for all things sexual. And shame on Pilgrim Radio for giving this purveyor of perversity a platform to poison my precious children with his toxic, man-centered, sin-pleasing oratory.
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverted mouth, I hate. -Proverbs 8:13
http://defendingcontending.com/2009/06/24/i%E2%80%99ve-had-it-with-mark-driscoll-and-his-mouth-now-it%E2%80%99s-personal/#comment-12271
pulled 7/17/09
I haven’t gone quite so far as his #3 point, nor anything like what you, John, accuse me of, but when I receive comments revealing the writer’s ignorance about the content and context of this blog and with a biting, dismissive attitude, I am sorely tempted…
Freedom!
Dear Freedom4Captives,
I am the blogger who some months ago made a blog post concerning your original blog, in which it seemed that I was a rather heartless beast who sided with Driscoll. I would like to let you know that I have linked to your new blog, in response to your post on the EC Forums, and I have posted some of my reasoning behind my original post. I would like to express both there, and here, that I am sorry if I offended you, or if I sounded overly harsh or had some things incorrect. I gleaned what information you had available at the time on your blog, which I suppose now that you were in the process of moving. Some of the information may not have been complete because of that move, or I may have made an error in reading what was posted. I do believe that I made every attempt to be as accurate as possible, but somehow I must have failed. And I ask your apology for my error. I sincerely would like some responses, particularly on your idea of “gender equality”, which I’m not entirely certain what you mean when you refer to that. Please, accept my apology, and I do look forward to a response regarding gender equality. If you would like, I can do a separate blog post regarding the issue of the roles of the genders according to Scripture, in order to give us the utmost footing for a discussion on this important issue today. Perhaps, we could do a series of responses to one another on our own blogs, I don’t know how you would best like to do such an endeavor.
In Christ,
Will Rogers
Will,
Thank you for your comment. I appreciate your apology and new tone. I responded to your comment more thoroughly than I had anticipated, so it became quite long, and I therefore decided to make that content a post. Please see #38, Freedom Responds to “Fundy.” This decision was also due to my desire to share some of the content in my response hopefully to a broader audience than might be had if this remained only in a comment section.
Freedom
It’s good that you take this on because I have a feeling that those too tangled in the system would not have the emotional resources to do what you have done and bring to light those uncomfortable truths that need to be told about any abusive system. I hope the detractors never dampen your spirits.
Provender,
Thank you so much for your encouragement! Isn’t there a Proverb about a choice word spoken in due time being like apples of gold? Well, this was the apple of gold I really needed right about now! God is so good! It seems like whenever I am at my lowest with this battle (and a few unrelated others), that God will send the right person at the right time with just the encouragement I need in answer to my prayers.
Bless you for listening to His “still, small voice,” and for being you!
I’ll have to check out your site again soon–I really appreciate what you are doing in the war against cults and cult-like churches, in the war for freedom of souls held captive!
Freedom!
Thank you for taking the time to create this blog. The internet has become an incredible means in which folks are able to keep pastors/churches accountable. It is a relatively new form of “ministry” and I’m convinced, a biblical one.
It wasn’t long ago that men like Driscoll were able to build empires where vulnerable people became trapped in the idol worship of one pastor. The internet is keeping corporations, small businesses, salesmen, churches, and pastors accountable to the people. It is wonderful.
Listening to Mark Driscoll longer than 5 minutes should convince anyone that he is nothing more than a macho-man cult leader at every level. The disdain he has for women and his degrading speech toward his wife and others is repulsive. It is obvious (at least from an onlooker as myself) that his conscience has been damaged and I question his moral integrity and purity based on many of his statements in his sermons.
I cannot figure out for the life of me why John Piper or Al Mohler would have anything to do with endorsing him or his ministry.
Please raise the questions and continue bringing accountability. And may God open the eyes of the blind to the damage this man is doing to His work here on this earth and I pray that members of this church will rise up and do what should be done.
thank you for your blog. Our daughter is currently an intern at MH. She started her internship 1-09 and only in the past 4 weeks have we realized that she is in a true cult. She is completely a different person, dropped out of college, sermonizes instead of conversing, is completely isolated, has been given a boy (also an intern) for an “arranged “marriage, etc.
When my husband and I talked with the pastor who is to marry them (against our feelings) we realized that this was a cult. He rebuffed us at every turn. “God trumps all”. “They hasve the gift of discernment”. After we left, then he proceeded to shame and guilt our daughter worse. She called us weeping about her sins.
We are strong Christians who tried to raise our daughter with faith. We are now angry that this value has been so abused by someone in the church. We are currently in the process of trying to rescue her (of course, she doesn’t have any thought process left to know that she needs rescuing).
Anybody have advice?
Thanks
Hi Julianne,
My heart really empathizes with you. This sounds very difficult and painful. Help me understand: your daughter is going to Mars Hill and has been since January of this year, is that right? And you talked to Mark Driscoll, the pastor?
I didn’t know that MH was into ‘arranged marriages,’ not even in subtle ways, let alone in more overt ways. Can you help me understand more about this?
And yes, that is very tough when “spiritual leaders” use the God card to trump anything and everything you say. Contrary to these “leaders,” even God Himself invites us to “come now, let us reason together…” God is never threatened about being questioned. Whether or not or how He responds has a whole lot to do with the questioner’s motivations: is he/she being sincere? Does he/she really want to know the truth?
Jesus was not threatened by being challenged either when He walked the earth. Paul the apostle was also humble enough to be challenged. He was secure enough in himself that when others in the fellowship of Christ disagreed with him, they didn’t become “all bad.” For example, when Barnabas took Mark and went on a separate missionary journey because he and Paul disagreed so vehemently about Mark assisting them (since Mark had abandoned them on a prior missionary journey), Paul accepted the situation and took another brother in Christ to go with him. He didn’t condemn Barnabas or try to control him… and later, Paul wrote about needing Mark to come along side and help him out. So, Paul was humble, didn’t power trip others, and was open to reevaluate situations and to forgive, etc. Spiritual abusers do not show these kinds of characteristics. It’s “their way or the highway,” after all, in their minds, they ARE the mouthpiece of God.
Having had personal experience with being abused by a “priest,” I truly understand how nefarious and cruel it is for a church leader to use the person’s faith to control the person. It is evil really; there’s no other word for it. My daughter was also spiritually abused by a parachurch organization and now she has very little interest in God and none in the Bible because the org so used this against her. I understand your anger.
You might find it helpful to read Jeff VanVonderen’s, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. There are also other very good books by and for Christians who have been abused spiritually. Amazon carries several.
I would also recommend counseling to help you and your family work through this. Get a good solid Christian therapist who understands mind control, church/spiritual abuse and even Professional Misconduct.
Freedom
Freedom,
Thanks for your message. Our daughter actually started MH 3 years ago while attending a nearby Christian college.She is rules oriented and a people-pleaser. She had been going for occasional counseling sessions which we understood to be re: typical 20 year old issues. Then she signed on as an intern and everything changed over this past year as noted above. As far as the marriage issue, numerous males from the church were desiring to date her but her pastor only allowed one “to pursue her”. That was allowed in June. By July they were told that this was ordained by God because he/the church “has the gift of discernment” and therefore unofficially engaged. They are currently officially engaged even though we have not blessed this. There does not seem to be any action or words of love between them; very mechanical; appears to be set from an organizational chart. Despite objections by so many of us who knew/know her, the church has dismissed our concerns.
We have only talked with this one pastor – not Mark himself. He will be notified shortly.
Julianne,
I must say this is rather shocking. I don’t remember hearing that MH had gone THAT far. That is really sick. I had heard something weird about dating couples at MH needing some kind of a “nod” from someone, perhaps the home group leaders, etc., … Which, okay, giving them the benefit of the doubt that MIGHT be understandable as far as people who know and love one or both in the couple unit and so they might say to one of them, “You know what, there are issues within so and so that you need to be aware of and he may not be the best fit for you.” You know, we speak into one another’s lives. But what you describe is really bad. I am so sorry.
I will respond more in detail in an email, but as I recommend there, I want to do so here, check out Provender’s site–a clearing house with all kinds of helpful info, posts and links having to do with church/spiritual abuse. Her blog is:
http://pureprovender.blogspot.com/
For example currently on her front page she’s got this posted:
“Resources on determining how healthy or unhealthy a church or group is:
“From Spotlight Ministries, Are You the Victim of Mind Control? contains a useful checklist to see if your group is exhibiting characteristics of a cult:”
…followed by a very helpful list. You might show this to your daughter if she’s open. You can also direct her to this site to read others thoughts and “testimonies” of their painful and what appears to be abusive experiences at MH.
Freedom
Hi,
Just letting you know about my recently published book that deals with spiritual abuse and how people recovered from it. (Dec./09)
It is entitled: ‘Spiritual Abuse Recovery: Dynamic Research on Finding a Place of Wholeness’.
This doctoral research should have appeal for many who have had distressing church experiences. It is also a resource for church ministry leaders.
People can email me for copies. info@churchexiters.com.
Dr. Barb Orlowski
Hi Barb,
Thanks for the update on your book’s status. Congrats!! I haven’t had a chance to look at it yet… kind of engrossed in getting my private practice up and running. But it is one I hope to at least review so I can recommend it to my clients who need it.
Thank you for sharing your hard work, experience and passion with us!!
Freedom!
Julianne, my heart goes out to you. Mark himself will not get back to you; this has been my experience with my many concerns from what I’ve seen MH do in the lives of my friends. Very sad and I will be thinking of your family. Sometimes people break free and when that happens it’s amazing!
xo
stephy
Thank you for your website. I was flirting with the idea of becoming a MH member a couple of years ago. Then as I started reading more about MD’s theology and listening to his podcasts, I discerned that MH was becoming a cult of personality with MD as its Lord and Master.
Another thing that bothered me was MH’s focus on young people – particularily young men – to the detriment of older members and attenders in the congregation. As a middle-aged divorced woman, I certainly don’t have the same concerns and sins that a young man in his 20’s has!
Of course, my being a middle-aged, divorced woman would be the ultimate example of failure.
The emphasis on Calvinism is also extremely troubling. My Bible says that God so “loved the world” – meaning that salvation is a free gift to all, not those who God predetermined. Calvinism is truly a dismal theology. You’re either in or out, and you don’t know if your are in or out, and nothing you can do will affect your eternal predetermined destiny.
Jenny,
Thank you for your comment. I’m glad you didn’t get sucked into the vortex…
I remember hearing an interview where MD unabashedly said something to the effect of: I’m going after the young men… if you get them, you get their wives and kids.
…Chilling…
I, too, am troubled by Calvinism. The Bible teaches BOTH God’s Sovereignty and human kind’s free will. Trying to nail that down into a neat little theology is like trying to nail down the Trinity… good luck! All you end up with is useless, or worse, caricatures.
Freedom!
I have an interesting story (I hope you think it’s interesting, I did). Last night I met someone who said he visited Mars Hill Church once. He rode his moped there and was holding his helmet when he walked in, and he said there were security guys standing by the entrance, which was kind of weird right there. One of the security guys said “What are you holding?” and he said “A helmet” and the security guy said “Is it a football helmet? Cause Mark Driscoll loves guys who play football.”
The guy never went back.
Hi,
Yes, my book continues to be available. Just email me at: info@churchexiters.com.
Check out my website: http://www.churchexiters.com.
There is information about my book: Spiritual Abuse Recovery: Dynamic Research on Finding a Place of Wholeness.
So glad that it can be available to be a resource for people who want to explore the issue of spiritual abuse and recovery for themselves or have a book to give to someone in need.
Talk to you soon.
Dr. Barb Orlowski
Wow, all I can say is wow.
Same tactics different address.
I think God for every precious soul that is liberated from these slavers.
Thanks for the courage to leave and stay free.
[…] For Captives offers this checklist of controlling churches which should ring warning bells. Whilst these are specifically about Mark […]